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Thoughts on God/Purpose

Posted by TheThorn 
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 06, 2015 02:41PM
Man I've been busy for a couple of days and totally lost track of this thread, going back to the most recent point I was involved in:

Quote
Navy2711
Thorn,

"Our ability to create purpose is a part of the universe, and has to be considered alongside any other part of it when we consider or reject broader notions of purpose."

I just did that very thing. I noted that the act of a deity having a "purpose" would be a mechanical activity of the universe, and a deity's perception of that purpose would be an illusion.

The key difference between your view point and mine is that I consider perception and consciousness itself to be a part of the universe.

You can say it is illusory since what we perceive may not be related to any particle or wave or whathaveyou, but the perception itself exists as part of the universe and has its own meaning.

Ultimately the difference is between seeing the human as the subjective viewer of an objective universe, and seeing the human as a constituent part of the object, and including our ability to act subjectively itself as a fundamental property of the objective universe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 04:35PM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 06, 2015 04:17PM
Quote
Sam wrote:
Not sure if it's possible for me or not. I think the main diff between your brain and mine on existence claims is that I believe the absence of evidence for existence IS evidence of nonexistence and along with the scientific fact that gods are unnecessary to explain anything in the universe I believe it is more likely that gods don't exist.

I don't think our brains are a 'lot different' as far as that goes. I also recognize a lack of evidence for existence as evidence for nonexistence. The difference in our thinking might be in how much a lack of evidence, used as evidence, influences our beliefs. My beliefs are formed based on how sufficient and persuasive the evidence is, they vary in the level of confidence I have in them. The degree of influence that the lack of evidence has on generating a belief varies depending on the context or situation in which it is used as evidence. For me, in some instances a lack of evidence can be powerful, virtually all the evidence I'd need to generate a belief. The lack of evidence for my car being in the garage, for instance, would be enough to convince me with the utmost confidence to believe my car was not in the garage.

The lack of evidence for intelligent life in a particular distant galaxy is much less convincing, in fact, it's not enough to persuade me to 'believe' there is no intelligent life somewhere in that distant galaxy. The persuasiveness of the lack of evidence regarding what might have existed before the Big Bang is completely insignificant to me as far as causing me to 'believe' there was nothing. Therefore, with regard to what was there before the Big Bang, I'm agnostic, I can't even imagine what the evidence I'd need might be like, let alone how to find it. The question of what, if anything, was there before The Big Bang is underdetermined. Sometime in the future we might come to a better understanding of it all and the question will then no longer be underdetermined.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2015 04:35PM by islander.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 07, 2015 10:18PM
Sam, if you can, help me out here. What am I missing? I've been following your conversation with Islander and just above he writes:

"The lack of evidence for my car being in the garage, for instance, would be enough to convince me with the utmost confidence to believe my car was not in the garage."

What? I don't get this at all. Why on earth would a lack of evidence for a particular car being in a garage convince someone that the car was not in the garage?

For example, you have no evidence whatsoever (I assume) that my car at this moment is in my garage; therefore, do you assume that my car is not in my garage? But why would you do that?

That's one of the crazier statements I believe I've ever read on this board. In fact, it strikes me as so irrational that I figure I have to be missing something. So, help!, what is it that I'm missing? (I hope it's nothing too obvious. yawning smiley)

[And, btw, if your complete lack of evidence that my car is in my garage has given you the utmost confidence to believe that my car is not in my garage . . . well, sorry, but you would be wrong about that since my car IS in my garage.]
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 08, 2015 03:39PM
Quote
Thorn wrote:
"the perception itself exists as part of the universe and has its own meaning."

It would be good if we had a clear and more or less universally accepted definition of what it means to 'exist'. But we don't. There are some for whom 'matter/energy' are the only things that be can said to 'exist'. They hold that what can't be measured doesn't exist. Inherently invisible, immaterial things things, that cannot be measured, don't exist. To me, that's much too limited a definition of 'exist' since it would mean that even though there are things that we know are real, they don't exist. If for instance, we were discussing with such a materialist, some ideas about an object, say a human body (even our own), the subjects, you, me, or the one we are talking to, and our ideas, would not really exist, even though we and our ideas are real. Only the body itself could be said to exist in the universe. Interesting stuff! smiling smiley
Sam
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 08, 2015 06:49PM
If you are saying "god" is just an idea and therefore exists, I can agree. Yay! I love it when we agree!
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 08, 2015 07:31PM
As an agnostic, I can't say that I think that if there is a *G*od winking smiley, he/she/it must be just an idea (could be a subject?), but I do agree that the idea is real (therefor exists) at least at times!
Sam
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
February 08, 2015 07:53PM
Can we agree there is no God and then agree that all other gods are probably just ideas?
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