Forum Index            

SelectSmart.com®
Before you decide
Over 20,000 selectors

Share

This isn't complicated. 2020 is a referendum on Trump.
Is your name welcomed below? Then you can post here. Otherwise, click "Log In" to post!
Welcome! » Log In » Create A New Profile

Thoughts on God/Purpose

Posted by TheThorn 
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 09:47AM
Quote
Dick
TheThorn wrote: Because I don't know.

My question does not ask about what you know about intelligent life being purposely created (or not). It asks only about what you believe about that subject. Big difference.

I'm assuming here that, like the rest of us, you do know what you believe about things even if, for some reason, you do not want to share your belief with anyone else. So do you believe that intelligent life was intentionally created through the process of evolution or do you not feel comfortable talking about your belief?

I'm clearly not uncomfortable talking about the natural laws of the universe being purposeful. I started this thread and have written at length about why I find this likely, and why I find the opposite extremely unlikely.

You seem to be utterly hung up on the word "belief". There is no need for it in this discussion. I've said what, at this point in time, I consider likely. This time next year, I might find something else likely. When it comes to metaphysical issues, contemplation has to be reflective. Hammering "beliefs" down to try and hold on to them serves no purpose.

Quote

Continuing in this vein, why would any being in their right mind use such a messy, time consuming process like evolution to create anything, much less intelligent life? If a being could create the slow, complicated, unwieldy process called evolution then surely to god that being could have created intelligent life directly without all the delay, without all the waste, and without all the dead ends that are part and parcel of the evolutionary process.

The fact that intelligent life finally, after 3 billion long years, emerged from a process is a damn good argument that intelligent life was not the intention or purpose or goal of that process in the first place but rather that it was merely one (of many) unintended byproducts of it.

So this is your argument for a meaningless universe? If the universe had purpose then it wouldn't be taking so long?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 10:48AM
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 10:52AM
Quote
Dick
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.

[en.wikipedia.org]
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 04:52PM
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 05:47PM
Quote
Dick
[www.youtube.com]

You are aware that "a more definitive response" doesn't just mean 'yes', it means 'no' as well?

From my post earlier:

Quote

One belief I strongly hold is that faith-based positive beliefs are irrational and serve little purpose but to divide people.

Be it Strong Atheism, Religions, ad hoc Spiritual Philosophies or whatever flavour a person chooses - pretending to know the answers and butting heads with all the other people pretending to know different answers is not sensible or helpful.

Are you starting to get it yet?

EDIT:

That is essentially one of my central point in this thread:

Strong Atheism is faith-based belief held by people pretending to be rationalists.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 06:03PM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 10:38PM
Perhaps you should start another thread on that topic. You know you don't do well when you try to debate too many diverse topics in one thread. You become even more unstable, if that's possible.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 12:39AM
Quote
Dick
Perhaps you should start another thread on that topic. You know you don't do well when you try to debate too many diverse topics in one thread. You become even more unstable, if that's possible.

This is a thread on that topic, among others.

It has been from the first post onward.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 05:01AM
Quote
TheThorn
Quote
Dick
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. . . .

[. . . from your [en.wikipedia.org] link with my own emphases on the words 'unknown' and 'unknowable.']


You do realize, do you not, that I'm talking about "BELIEF," not about "KNOWLEDGE" and that the semantics of those two words are entirely different?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 09:27AM
Quote
Dick
Quote
TheThorn
Quote
Dick
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. . . .

[. . . from your [en.wikipedia.org] link with my own emphases on the words 'unknown' and 'unknowable.']


You do realize, do you not, that I'm talking about "BELIEF," not about "KNOWLEDGE" and that the semantics of those two words are entirely different?

Words are important, Dick, and 'belief' is a loaded one. If I can avoid using it relating to metaphysical issues, then I will.

EDIT: The key difference between an agnostic approach and adherence to a story (be it religious, atheistic, ad hoc spiritual etc) is whether we are dealing in likelihoods or beliefs. Logic or faith. If a "pure agnostic" exists - someone who literally harbours no opinions on things which they don't hold knowledge of - then they are probably autistic. Most people following an agnostic approach will still think deeply about metaphysical issues and form their own ideas and theories. The point at which one stops being agnostic and starts being a person of faith is when they say "this is what I believe" rather than "this is what I find likely".

Are you really still stuck on this? Can we move on?

Do you actually have something of substance you want to discuss?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2015 10:53AM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 04:22PM
Basically, Thorn, Dick wants to take whatever someone has said, put it in a particle accelerator and smash it into infinitesimally small pieces to individually dissect and analyse whatever piece or pieces he chooses to focus on until the cows come home.

Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 05:54PM
Quote
Ponderer
Basically, Thorn, Dick wants to take whatever someone has said, put it in a particle accelerator and smash it into infinitesimally small pieces to individually dissect and analyse whatever piece or pieces he chooses to focus on until the cows come home.

It appears to me that he has a limited number of "stock arguments" that he likely read elsewhere and likes to regurgitate and repeat.

If you say something he hasn't got a response to, he ignores it and tries to get you to say something he does:

"Would it be fair to say that you believe [insert thing you never gave any indication you believe here]?"

Then he gets angry when you don't take the bait.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2015 07:39PM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 06:42PM
Bingo.

Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 09:39PM
I have no problem following what Dick said. In fact, it drives me nuts that people like Ponderer and Thorn complain when Dick wants to adhere to simple definitions like "belief", "knowledge," and "possible vs. probably." I don't see any atom smashing there. The semantic discipline that Dick insists on is not just acceptable in a philosophical discussion ... it's necessary.

In this very thread, we have Thorn saying, "Words are important, Dick, and 'belief' is a loaded one."

"Belief" is a loaded word?? Holy sh*t on a stick, are you kidding me? It's as straighforward as it gets. It's fundamental. It's indispensable. Ponderer skips over that and complains about Dick??
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 10:30PM
Quote
Navy2711
I have no problem following what Dick said. In fact, it drives me nuts that people like Ponderer and Thorn complain when Dick wants to adhere to simple definitions like "belief", "knowledge," and "possible vs. probably." I don't see any atom smashing there. The semantic discipline that Dick insists on is not just acceptable in a philosophical discussion ... it's necessary.

In this very thread, we have Thorn saying, "Words are important, Dick, and 'belief' is a loaded one."

"Belief" is a loaded word?? Holy sh*t on a stick, are you kidding me? It's as straighforward as it gets. It's fundamental. It's indispensable. Ponderer skips over that and complains about Dick??

Navy,
Read the definition of agnosticism I presented Dick with.

I have political beliefs, moral beliefs, beliefs about historical incidents. We have beliefs regarding things for which there can be evidence for or against.

We cannot have evidence regarding the metaphysical. We do not.

Therefore an agnostic approach is the only logical way to proceed.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 29, 2015 04:42PM
"We cannot have evidence regarding the metaphysical. We do not.

Therefore an agnostic approach is the only logical way to proceed."
-Thorn

And there it is. I couldn't agree more.

Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.


Cookies Consent Policy & Privacy Statement. All Rights Reserved. SelectSmart® is a registered trademark. | Contact SelectSmart.com | Advertise on SelectSmart.com | This site is for sale!