Forum Index            

SelectSmart.com®
Before you decide
Over 20,000 selectors

Share

This isn't complicated. 2020 is a referendum on Trump.

The job of the Biden campaign is simple, and Trump is helping.
Is your name welcomed below? Then you can post here. Otherwise, click "Log In" to post!
Welcome! » Log In » Create A New Profile

Thoughts on God/Purpose

Posted by TheThorn 
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 07:43PM
Quote
Dick
That's not exactly a denial of my claim. So I'll ask you directly -- do you believe the scientific theory of the universe, including the 3 examples of it that I listed previously, is largely accurate as far as we today have reason to believe?

It's a pointing out that you clearly haven't read my posts, and you could get your answers by simply doing so.

For the sake of it - yes I believe in the scientific process as the best route to understanding.

As a bit of a tangent - you shouldn't really believe in any scientific theory, you should believe in the scientific process. A theory is only good until the next one disproves it.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 08:44PM
If you do not consider well-tested, highly confirmed scientific theory to be worthy of one's simple, tentative belief then what on earth, if anything, do you consider to be worthy???

I think you may be confusing 'belief' with 'absolute truth' and those are FAR from similar cognitive states.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 08:55PM
Anyway, so if you accept the scientific view of the world, why would you believe that life or self-consciousness is the purpose of the universe given that the universe is still evolving and apparently has many more billions of years left to evolve before its heat death? Isn't it possible that some phenomenon more complex than self-consciousness will evolve? Why should anyone suspect evolution stops at self-conscious life? To think that way smacks of provincialist thinking and favoritism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 08:56PM by Dick.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 09:12PM
Quote
Dick
If you do not consider well-tested, highly confirmed scientific theory to be worthy of one's simple, tentative belief then what on earth, if anything, do you consider to be worthy???

All accepted science has my tentative belief until something shows it to be wrong. That's all I mean when I say I believe in the scientific method, not in scientific theories in particular.

Quote

I think you may be confusing 'belief' with 'absolute truth' and those are FAR from similar cognitive states.

I'm not confusing anything, you are entering all these terms into the discussion not me.

Quote

Anyway, so if you accept the scientific view of the world, why would you believe that life or self-consciousness is the purpose of the universe given that the universe is still evolving and apparently has many more billions of years left to evolve before its heat death? Isn't it possible that some phenomenon more complex than self-consciousness will evolve? Why should anyone suspect evolution stops at self-conscious life?

Anything is possible and I don't claim that I know what the purpose is. I explained in great detail above why I believe that life makes purpose seem likely to me.

Quote

To think that way smacks of provincialist thinking and favoritism.

Again, it is you who said that, not me. You seem to be having a conversation with yourself here.

EDIT:

Dick, there are several posts I have already written in this thread, why not read them all and respond to something I've actually said?

It'll be a lot more productive of a conversation than you taking wild stabs in the dark at what I might believe and arguing against your own made up ideas. That is basically just talking to yourself.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2015 10:07PM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 10:20PM
It doesn't make sense to say that you believe in "accepted science" but not in any of the scientific theories that compose "accepted science." One either believes that consensually accepted scientific theories, such as the TOE and the Big Bang, represent the most accurate model we have today for how the universe works or one doesn't.

Although you seem reticent to say it, it seems pretty clear that you do indeed believe that theories of science are provisionally true.

In the OP you wrote "The laws of the universe do not allow the development of these [conscious] creatures by "happy accident", they are there specifically (or in part) there to do to just that."

Now you deny that you believe that at least one of the purposes of the universe was to create conscious creatures.

You cannot coherently believe both things at once. Either you believe self-consciousness (or simple consciousness, if you prefer) was purposely or intentionally created or you don't believe that.

So which do you believe?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 10:30PM
Quote
Dick
It doesn't make sense to say that you believe in "accepted science" but not in any of the scientific theories that compose "accepted science." One either believes that consensually accepted scientific theories, such as the TOE and the Big Bang, represent the most accurate model we have today for how the universe works or one doesn't.

Although you seem reticent to say it, it seems pretty clear that you do indeed believe that theories of science are provisionally true.

Quote
Thorn
All accepted science has my tentative belief until something shows it to be wrong. That's all I mean when I say I believe in the scientific method, not in scientific theories in particular.

You asked me if I believed these things tentatively. I said yes, I believe them tentatively. Now you're saying I'm reticent to admit I believe them "provisionally"... which is a synonym of "tentatively".

Yes Dick. I believe them tentatively too.

And before you ask, I also believe them conditionally.

Quote

In the OP you wrote "The laws of the universe do not allow the development of these [conscious] creatures by "happy accident", they are there specifically (or in part) there to do to just that."

Now you deny that you believe that at least one of the purposes of the universe was to create conscious creatures.

I believe it is likely that they all exist in part for that purpose. I've made that pretty clear in this thread. Whether life as we know it is the "end game" or a stepping stone in a process, that's fun to think about but I don't have a firm view.

Quote

You cannot coherently believe both things at once. Either you believe self-consciousness (or simple consciousness, if you prefer) was purposely or intentionally created or you don't believe that.

So which do you believe?

How can anyone have read one let alone all of my posts in this thread and not understand my position. I believe that life is an indication that there is a purpose to the universe. I don't claim to have any idea of what the big picture is.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 11:42PM
I suspect that everyone else here knows whether he or she believes that self-consciousness was purposely or intentionally created and can express their belief by simply stating "Yes, I do believe self-consciousness was created intentionally" or "No, I don't believe self-consciousness was intentionally created," before going on to elaborate on their answer if they choose.

I wonder why it is that you cannot?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 26, 2015 11:58PM
Lots of people believe things with no evidence just because they cannot bear the thought of some alternative possibility being true. Does the notion that your individual consciousness may one day disappear without a trace, that in 500 years time there will be no thought of you ever again in the mind of any living thing, that it will be as if you never existed, disturb you?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 12:08AM
Quote
Dick
I suspect that everyone else here knows whether he or she believes that self-consciousness was purposely or intentionally created and can express their belief by simply stating "Yes, I do believe self-consciousness was created intentionally" or "No, I don't believe self-consciousness was intentionally created," before going on to elaborate on their answer if they choose.

I wonder why it is that you cannot?

Because I don't know.

Quote

Lots of people believe things with no evidence just because they cannot bear the thought of some alternative possibility being true. Does the notion that your individual consciousness may one day disappear without a trace, that in 500 years time there will be no thought of you ever again in the mind of any living thing, that it will be as if you never existed, disturb you?

No, not at all. I have no reason to think that its any other way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 12:09AM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 06:23AM
TheThorn wrote: Because I don't know.

My question does not ask about what you know about intelligent life being purposely created (or not). It asks only about what you believe about that subject. Big difference.

I'm assuming here that, like the rest of us, you do know what you believe about things even if, for some reason, you do not want to share your belief with anyone else. So do you believe that intelligent life was intentionally created through the process of evolution or do you not feel comfortable talking about your belief?

Continuing in this vein, why would any being in their right mind use such a messy, time consuming process like evolution to create anything, much less intelligent life? If a being could create the slow, complicated, unwieldy process called evolution then surely to god that being could have created intelligent life directly without all the delay, without all the waste, and without all the dead ends that are part and parcel of the evolutionary process. The fact that intelligent life finally, after 3 billion long years, emerged from a process is a damn good argument that intelligent life was not the intention or purpose or goal of that process in the first place but rather that it was merely one (of many) unintended byproducts of it.

I would guess that if birds could think, then many of them would believe that flight was the purpose of evolution.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 09:47AM
Quote
Dick
TheThorn wrote: Because I don't know.

My question does not ask about what you know about intelligent life being purposely created (or not). It asks only about what you believe about that subject. Big difference.

I'm assuming here that, like the rest of us, you do know what you believe about things even if, for some reason, you do not want to share your belief with anyone else. So do you believe that intelligent life was intentionally created through the process of evolution or do you not feel comfortable talking about your belief?

I'm clearly not uncomfortable talking about the natural laws of the universe being purposeful. I started this thread and have written at length about why I find this likely, and why I find the opposite extremely unlikely.

You seem to be utterly hung up on the word "belief". There is no need for it in this discussion. I've said what, at this point in time, I consider likely. This time next year, I might find something else likely. When it comes to metaphysical issues, contemplation has to be reflective. Hammering "beliefs" down to try and hold on to them serves no purpose.

Quote

Continuing in this vein, why would any being in their right mind use such a messy, time consuming process like evolution to create anything, much less intelligent life? If a being could create the slow, complicated, unwieldy process called evolution then surely to god that being could have created intelligent life directly without all the delay, without all the waste, and without all the dead ends that are part and parcel of the evolutionary process.

The fact that intelligent life finally, after 3 billion long years, emerged from a process is a damn good argument that intelligent life was not the intention or purpose or goal of that process in the first place but rather that it was merely one (of many) unintended byproducts of it.

So this is your argument for a meaningless universe? If the universe had purpose then it wouldn't be taking so long?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 10:48AM
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 10:52AM
Quote
Dick
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.

[en.wikipedia.org]
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 04:52PM
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 05:47PM
Quote
Dick
[www.youtube.com]

You are aware that "a more definitive response" doesn't just mean 'yes', it means 'no' as well?

From my post earlier:

Quote

One belief I strongly hold is that faith-based positive beliefs are irrational and serve little purpose but to divide people.

Be it Strong Atheism, Religions, ad hoc Spiritual Philosophies or whatever flavour a person chooses - pretending to know the answers and butting heads with all the other people pretending to know different answers is not sensible or helpful.

Are you starting to get it yet?

EDIT:

That is essentially one of my central point in this thread:

Strong Atheism is faith-based belief held by people pretending to be rationalists.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2015 06:03PM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 27, 2015 10:38PM
Perhaps you should start another thread on that topic. You know you don't do well when you try to debate too many diverse topics in one thread. You become even more unstable, if that's possible.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 12:39AM
Quote
Dick
Perhaps you should start another thread on that topic. You know you don't do well when you try to debate too many diverse topics in one thread. You become even more unstable, if that's possible.

This is a thread on that topic, among others.

It has been from the first post onward.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 05:01AM
Quote
TheThorn
Quote
Dick
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. . . .

[. . . from your [en.wikipedia.org] link with my own emphases on the words 'unknown' and 'unknowable.']


You do realize, do you not, that I'm talking about "BELIEF," not about "KNOWLEDGE" and that the semantics of those two words are entirely different?
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 09:27AM
Quote
Dick
Quote
TheThorn
Quote
Dick
Yes, I am "hung up" on this belief thing when discussing world views. In fact, I find things like belief and logic to be indispensable to that process.

A belief is a simple thing. It is nothing more than a proposition that someone holds to be true of the world. It's pointless to argue with someone who doesn't realize that any individual belief anyone holds is either true or false and not both. When someone implies that he believes life or consciousness or flight or anything else is an intended outcome of the evolutionary process AND at the same time says that he doesn't necessarily believe this AND is unwilling to amend his position once this inconsistency is pointed out to him, it's probably best just to move on from that conversation.

At this point in time, that's exactly what I believe I'll do.

Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether or not God, the divine or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable. . . .

[. . . from your [en.wikipedia.org] link with my own emphases on the words 'unknown' and 'unknowable.']


You do realize, do you not, that I'm talking about "BELIEF," not about "KNOWLEDGE" and that the semantics of those two words are entirely different?

Words are important, Dick, and 'belief' is a loaded one. If I can avoid using it relating to metaphysical issues, then I will.

EDIT: The key difference between an agnostic approach and adherence to a story (be it religious, atheistic, ad hoc spiritual etc) is whether we are dealing in likelihoods or beliefs. Logic or faith. If a "pure agnostic" exists - someone who literally harbours no opinions on things which they don't hold knowledge of - then they are probably autistic. Most people following an agnostic approach will still think deeply about metaphysical issues and form their own ideas and theories. The point at which one stops being agnostic and starts being a person of faith is when they say "this is what I believe" rather than "this is what I find likely".

Are you really still stuck on this? Can we move on?

Do you actually have something of substance you want to discuss?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2015 10:53AM by TheThorn.
Re: Thoughts on God/Purpose
January 28, 2015 04:22PM
Basically, Thorn, Dick wants to take whatever someone has said, put it in a particle accelerator and smash it into infinitesimally small pieces to individually dissect and analyse whatever piece or pieces he chooses to focus on until the cows come home.

Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.


Cookies Consent Policy & Privacy Statement. All Rights Reserved. SelectSmart® is a registered trademark. | Contact SelectSmart.com | Advertise on SelectSmart.com | This site is for sale!