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Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...

Posted by tuk22 
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
August 30, 2014 07:54PM
sardonicadonis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every baby should be aborted. It's the only moral
> thing to do. DS or no.



When I get my time machine working, I'm going to go back in time and show that quote to your mother. smiling smiley
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
August 30, 2014 08:17PM
Indy! Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sardonicadonis Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Every baby should be aborted. It's the only
> moral
> > thing to do. DS or no.
>
>
>
> When I get my time machine working, I'm going to
> go back in time and show that quote to your
> mother. smiling smiley


smileys with beer confused smiley

============================================================================

*Sanders 2016*

"And these children that you spit on
As they try to change their worlds
Are immune to your consultations
They're quite aware of what they're going through"
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 01, 2014 10:00AM
madmadmadonna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Indy! Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > I am claiming the "person" starts when it is
> out
> > of the womb.
>
> And I am claiming it starts even while it's in the
> womb.


A fetus is in the womb for around nine months. When during this 9-month period do you believe that a fetus magically turns into something called a "person"? That's the key question.
Sam
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 02, 2014 08:00PM
It's dough until it comes out of the oven then it's a bun. If you look thru the oven glass while it's cooking and see something is wrong with it, it may not be immoral (an unfortunate term used to incite outrage or at least gain attention methinks) but would certainly be stupid to keep cooking it IF you would really prefer a perfect bun.

Edited to add: Technically, if you loosely define morality as a code of behavior which benefits humanity the most, from Dawkins' pov as an evolution expert, it most certainly WOULD be immoral to knowingly bring a flawed offspring to fruition. It weakens the gene pool. Sorry that might butt hurt some more sensitive on the subject but try to be objective about it and it makes perfect sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/02/2014 08:52PM by Sam.
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 12:12AM
It's dough until it comes out of the oven then it's a bun.

What a stupid metaphor... thumbs down

Technically, if you loosely define morality as a code of behavior which benefits humanity the most, from Dawkins' pov as an evolution expert, it most certainly WOULD be immoral to knowingly bring a flawed offspring to fruition. It weakens the gene pool. Sorry that might butt hurt some more sensitive on the subject but try to be objective about it and it makes perfect sense.
.



Social Darwinism... If there was a prenatal test for homosexuality I believe there is a moral imperative to choose abortion... Just think of the suffering we would eliminate... eye rolling smiley
Sam
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 12:56AM
I do believe you believe that but there could be said to be something quite advantageous in homosexuality for population control. Equating homosexuality with flawed genetics is ignorant. There is no concern for suffering. It's a matter of having the most functional and successful genes. Your emotions get in your way. A human is not a person until it has a personality which it obtains the second it becomes conscious and breathing, imo. Guess you didn't get the bun in the oven thing. Fetuses are just like dough except there are only two ingredients, one whole egg and dash of sperm. Think about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 01:04AM by Sam.
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 01:09AM
Dawkins argument was about reducing suffering... Your argument is eugenics and social engineering with a heavy dose of the naturalistic fallacy...
Sam
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 02:59AM
We already practice eugenics with laws against incest and marrying and reproducing with family members. You have a problem with that? Where does Dawkins mention suffering? You are simply just too emotional. Your OP is evidence of that when you said Dawkins should shut his pie hole, lol...Why? Because YOU disagree with him? Suggesting homosexuality is a genetic problem comparable to DS demonstrates not only your ignorance and runaway emotion but a slippery slope fallacy. I do believe the problem here is not in saying a DS fetus should be aborted but that a DS baby should HAVE BEEN aborted which are two different things and does speak to the subjectivity of the matter in emotional terms. In purely objective terms, it makes more sense to abort an unhealthy fetus than it does to have it. Need I mention the disability payments received by so many who choose to have disabled kids come from taxpayers? I also think people on welfare should be sterilized after losing custody of kids for abuse, abandonment or neglect. Stupid people, too.
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 03:39AM
And I think there should be a law stating hillbilly rednecks shouldn't reproduce...

Dawkins moral argument is about reducing suffering, just google Dawkins/Down's syndrome practically nobody it seems is defending him and the small amount of people who do are shooting themselves in the foot. Its not about what each individual ought to do, it might make moral sense to abort a fetus depending on the situation. The argument is that a women has a moral obligation to abort the fetus if it's tested positive for DS and that nonsense isn't defensible... It also strips away a women's freedom of choice... The freedom to do what she pleases with her own body... It devalues the lives of people with DS implying the world is somehow better off if they never existed... Who are you to decide if non existence is greater than having DS?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 03:47AM by tuk22.
Sam
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 04:35AM
I am not defending Dawkins. Just trying to interpret him in the way I understand it and I saw no mention of suffering in the article you posted. Who knows what he meant and who cares? He still has the right not to "shut his pie hole", lol. Your slippery slope fallacies are based on personal prejudices against homosexuals and redneck hillbillies which are not a burden to society or defects in the gene pool unless they have too many children on disability and welfare income. Again from the perspective of natural selection, if we have the ability to cull the herd of disability it would be the moral thing to do if morality means doing what is best for the herd. If it's not, what is it?
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 04:58AM
It's called sarcasm I don't have a prejudice with homosexuality... Or rednecks...

And it's not surprising you don't understand ethics... it has nothing to do with evolution...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 04:59AM by tuk22.
Sam
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 05:21AM
Dawkins is an expert on evolution. This is about Dawkins' statement, isn't it? So how can it NOT be about evolution? Ethics/morality is entirely subjective. You think one thing, Dawkins another and I another. You have lots of emotion in your version. Not sure about Dawkins but I try not to judge these things based on anything but what I think is best (most rational) for humanity as a whole. Why do you think I don't understand ethics? Because you disagree with me? You didn't answer my question: if morality is not what is best for the herd, what is it? No need to get personal or emotional here. Just use your intellect alone for a minute. If you can.
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 05:40AM
It has nothing to do with emotion other than my disgust at your reasoning... If one believes it's a moral imperative to abort DS fetuses it's up to them to speak logically and consistent... If you defend amorality or moral relativism you are speaking nonsense when you claim someone ought to do something... If you argue evolution or natural selection determines right from wrong you commit naturalistic fallicies... That and you go against moral foundations like the golden rule...

All men are created equal. From an evolutionary perspective this is nonsense. All men are not created equal; there exists both genetic and environmental differences in all of us... But as a ethical rule it does makes sense and allows us to further reason that it's wrong to treat other people as inferior or not worthy... Unless there is some other moral judgment to make...
Sam
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 06:04AM
I don't think Dawkins said it is a moral imperative to abort DS fetuses. I know I didn't say that. I also didn't say anyone ought to do anything. I just said if morality is defined as what's best for the human species (and you've certainly avoided giving me a better definition) then it's moral to abort any fetus with any disability and immoral not to. I'm all for treating PERSONS as I would want to be treated. Fetuses are not persons, imo. I don't believe all men are created at all much less created equal. Also, neither Dawkins nor I have said anything about inferiority or worthiness. Those are emotional aspects unless you are talking specifics such as one person is inferior to another in basketball or worthless as a tv repairman. Please enlighten me as to what a naturalistic fallacy is. Btw, your emotional outrage was evident in your first post and subsequent ones before I got here so it's not just your disgust with me (yawn) that is driving your responses. Do you have a DS kid in your family or something?
Re: Dawkins says it's immoral not to abort DS babies...
September 03, 2014 06:26AM
Yes he did, his morality is based on increasing happiness and reducing suffering... Read his blog... Read the entire thread, I'm on my iPhone and I'm not going to repeat myself...

You already gave the best definition of morality... The golden rule... Logic and the golden rule are the foundations of business ethics IMO the most well thought out ethical system in existence...

And yes, there is good reason to be disgusted at Dawkins because he's an idiot... There is no good reason to abort all DS fetuses...
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