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Giving Thanks

Posted by madmadmadonna 
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 12:25AM
Maddie,

"We do not decide our time on this earth. God has a plan."

If that's supposed to mean that we don't have input in determining our date and time of death, that's obviously untrue. If it were, you could demonstrate it right now by jumping off a cliff and surviving the fall. Noone who ever goes to a doctor, or does anything for health reasons — like quit smoking — or stays away from downed electrical lines, etc etc etc believes that they have an unalterable death date.

(Come to think of it, you could help speed up "God's plan" by committing suicide. God's plan can't be altered, right? If you succeed, and you die, then clearly that's what God had planned for you.)

So again, why is it that I should "thank God" when my sick mother dies? Because her death was part of God's plan, and God's plan is beneficial to her? Based on that logic, we should thank God for everything, since everything is part of God's plan. If my mother was not a believer when she died, and never accepted Jesus in her heart, or whatever, and is now burning in hell for all eterninty, apparently I should thank God for that. Thank you, God, for child rape, mass murders, lifelong imprisonment of innocent people, world wars, and horrible disfiguring diseases. It's all good for us!

"You just chill. Let Him take over."

I know Christians have special lingo, but in plain English, "Let [him,her,it] take over" means to give up a significant portion of your control to another entity. That's not what Christians do, of course, when they say they're letting God "take over." What they actually do is make decisions based on what they think God would want. (They have a name for the thoughts that bubble up in their mind, which they attribute to God — they call it "God's whispering in their heart," or "God's whispering voice." ) They might also consult a friend, family member, or preacher and get their ideas about what they think God would want. At no time is God actually consulted, and no control is given up.

Incidentally, Maddie, when I'm counselled to "just chill, let God take over," how would I know if I should maybe be listening to believers in other religions, who advise me to let their deity take over? Your God is one out of few thousand described by men, all of which I have equal evidence for. How do I know yours is the real deal?
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 01:22AM
John 14 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Comforts His Disciples
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 01:26AM
Why do so many Christians and non believers think that the bible was written for them? I never understood that...
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 01:41AM
Because Jesus often addressed all believers.

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 01:45AM
In the context of the chapter you feel as if Jesus is talking to you? Really? I think most biblical passages had an intended audience eg the Jews, certain church groups, certain individuals... But it's not like we can't learn from it...
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 02:49AM
"In the context of the chapter you feel as if Jesus is talking to you? Really?" - Tuk

If there's anything to wonder about, it's why a book written by an infallible source contains any ambiguity at all. Good luck explaining that.
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 04:59AM
That is demonstrably false... And not implied in any scripture. It's 19th and 20th century church doctrine...
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 08:16AM
"That is demonstrably false ..."

We're talking about the Christian God. It is neither demonstrably true, nor demonstrably false, because it can't be demonstrably-ed at all.

In the meantime, I don't think there's much arguing with PTTP on this one. As she points out, Jesus's words are clear: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works ... "
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 08:52AM
The bible is not a book written by an infallible source. Inerrancy and infallibility were harsh reactions to the challengers of the authority of the church during the late 19th century. And again, if you think Jesus means literally 'whoever' in an all inclusive encompassing sense you must feel quite special... It seems obvious to me Jesus is instructing the disciples in that story.

Read all of John 13 and 14 and tell me I'm wrong...
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 09:18AM
Fundamentalism was an attempt to rationalize the bible, to make it a cohesive whole, but it was always sheer folly and it seems like it even corrupted the minds of the atheist as well... What beauty contained in the gospels is sucked dry by it's unwavering approach. We would never put Aesop to such rigor; and yet nobody would deny it's truth and wisdom.
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 05:07PM
You aren't only at odds with fundamentalists - you're at odds with most of Christendom.
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 06:01PM
With church doctrine, yes. And for good reason...

The message of salvation IMO is for all people, but the gospels were written for a target audience. The passages in john we are discussing clearly show a discussion between Jesus and the disciples... So if you were called to be a disciple of Christ that particular passage speaks directly to you...
Re: Giving Thanks
August 15, 2014 08:32PM
1. The full name is Aesop's Fables. Kind of self-explanatory in that regard.

2. People aren't starting wars over The Ant and the Grasshopper.
Re: Giving Thanks
August 16, 2014 10:12AM
If everything that happens is God's will, then how can you know that anything in particular is God's will, Maddie?

You just have to have faith that something in particular that happens is God's will, correct? And to have faith that something is God's will is not to have a reasonable, supported belief that it is God's will.

That's fine for some folks, I suppose, but I'd rather believe with evidence or suspend belief altogether if there is no evidence. To do otherwise makes it too easy for one to continue to believe in one's long-held biases and prejudices by thinly disguising such things as "God's will."
Re: Giving Thanks
August 27, 2014 08:01AM
@ Navy:

Free will is God given. If you decide to commit suicide or to take treatment for illness, that's part of free will. You're held accountable in free will. Does this make sense?

Listen to all religions and accept what is good in all religions. Because all religions are led by one cosmic force. If you've studied the concepts of different religions like I've had a chance to study Hinduism and Christianity, you'd be amazed at the similarities in what seems to be two diversely different religions. You just need an inner vision and an open mind to absorb that.

Maddie
Re: Giving Thanks
August 27, 2014 08:04AM
Dick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's fine for some folks, I suppose, but I'd
> rather believe with evidence or suspend belief
> altogether if there is no evidence. To do
> otherwise makes it too easy for one to continue to
> believe in one's long-held biases and prejudices
> by thinly disguising such things as "God's will."

And thus spake Dick showing his bias and prejudice against Christianity smiling smiley

Just needed to prove bias and prejudice are human fallacies - don;t blame Christianity or any religion for that.

Maddie
Re: Giving Thanks
September 01, 2014 10:02AM
Maybe I missed it but I don't seem to find the word "Christian" or anything that refers directly to "Christian" in my reply.

Do you think that perhaps you're a bit oversensitive?

(OTOH, I suppose it's easier to write a reply that misstates the truth rather than to answer a couple of uncomfortable questions about your beliefs; so from that perspective your tactic makes sense.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2014 10:06AM by Dick.
Re: Giving Thanks
September 17, 2014 09:59PM
How's it going, Dick?
Re: Giving Thanks
September 18, 2014 07:49AM
Maddie wrote: "You just need an inner vision and an open mind to absorb that."

Perhaps, but not caring much about truth or clear thinking definitely helps in accepting a religious view of reality.
Re: Giving Thanks
September 27, 2014 10:20PM
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