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Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Posted by Anonymous User 
Anonymous User
Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 05, 2014 04:03AM
ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.


"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I’m referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.[/color]

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)


DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1.
Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?



________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 05, 2014 08:33PM
Alter, welcome!

I would further add that eternal hellfire can be dismissed on logical grounds as well...

Thanks!
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 06, 2014 06:00PM
tuk22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alter, welcome!
>
> I would further add that eternal hellfire can be
> dismissed on logical grounds as well...
>
> Thanks!


ALTER2EGO -to- TUK22:

Thank you for the welcome.

Unfortunately, the eternal hellfire dogma is not easily dismissed on logical grounds where hellfire believers are concerned. I have debated this topic at other websites with people claiming to be Christians, and they insist hellfire torment is necessary--despite the fact they are never able to present scriptures to support their claims.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 06, 2014 07:29PM
It's always easier to argue against logical contradictions and eternal hellfire contradicts the concept of justice... I'll explain.

God is just.

Justice is defined as 'an eye for an eye'. In a perfect world it's perfect justice, but we don't live in a perfect world so we will never really know what the punishment should be. We do know that justice is a balance, and that the punishment can never exceed the crime. So, we do know what the punishment cannot possible be...

Eternal hellfire is eternal punishment. In no sense is this 'just'. In no possible world is this 'just'. If someone thinks it is 'just' it makes the concept 'God is just' inconceivable nonsense... Justice demands forgiveness and finite punishments for finite offenses...

So a Christian can believe in eternal hellfire, but logic demands they give up on believing God is just... And if they deny logic, they deny God and His absolute word...

There is an out, but most hellfire Christians won't believe it... Eternal hellfire is just because some people desire eternal punishment. It's just hard to imagine anyone actually wanting to be eternally punished...
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 07, 2014 09:51AM
tuk22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's always easier to argue against logical
> contradictions and eternal hellfire contradicts

ALTER2EGO -to- TUK22:

True, it is easy to argue against logical contradictions. But if those on the receiving end of the argument are not willing to use logic (and hellfire howlers are usually not willing), one's argument will fall on deaf ears. Their favorite routine is to quote the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus and various lessons being given by Jesus Christ, during which he uses figurative speech. The hellfire believers ignore the context--the fact that they are reading parables and/or figurative speech--and insist that Gehenna and the "Lake of fire" in Revelations is literal.



tuk22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God is just.
>
> Justice is defined as 'an eye for an eye'. In a
> perfect world it's perfect justice, but we don't
> live in a perfect world so we will never really
> know what the punishment should be. We do know
> that justice is a balance, and that the punishment
> can never exceed the crime. So, we do know what
> the punishment cannot possible be...
>
> Eternal hellfire is eternal punishment. In no
> sense is this 'just'. In no possible world is this
> 'just'. If someone thinks it is 'just' it makes
> the concept 'God is just' inconceivable
> nonsense... Justice demands forgiveness and finite
> punishments for finite offenses...
>

I agree with your above conclusions. Punishing people eternally for wicked acts committed over, say, a human life span of 80 years makes God out to be far more wicked than those he is supposed to be punishing.


tuk22 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is an out, but most hellfire Christians
> won't believe it... Eternal hellfire is just
> because some people desire eternal punishment.
> It's just hard to imagine anyone actually wanting
> to be eternally punished...

I have found that people who gravitate towards literal hellfire torment are often willing to believe other false doctrines not found in God's inspired word, the Bible. It is all part of their pattern of behavior.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 11, 2014 05:15AM
Alter2Ego welcome
I’ve read your post and felt I needed to respond.

You wrote ‘The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.’


It’s true that early Judaism had no concept of an afterlife or hell, these concepts were introduced by the Greeks. And the word ‘hell’ in the English translation of the new testament is used for three different words; the Hebrew word Sheol which is similar to Hades, a place for the dead, Gehenna, which was a garbage dumb for the dead bodies of sinners, is used as a metaphor for the place sinner will be punished after judgment day and Tartarus were the fallen angels were sent.

Now hell and the afterlife is mentioned quite a number of times in the gospels. So either the early Christians were heavily influenced by pagan religions on the concept of the afterlife or the gospel writers were. But there is no denying from the scriptures that eternal damnation in pain for sinners and people who rejects his teaching and the holy spirit was part of Jesus’ teachings.

Sorry about the number of passages but I posted them to prove me point. When you read them you can’t simple brush off what Jesus was saying as all allegory and metaphors, from the emphasis of the subject matter one could easy conclude it was obviously integral to early Christianity.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. Matthew 5.22

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (said to disciples)

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Matthew 18:8-9: "And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.." (said to disciples)

Matthew 22:2, 11-13: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son… But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot, an cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'" (said to priests and Pharisees)

Matthew 23:15: "Wie to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves." (spoken to crowds and disciples, about scribes and Pharisees)

Matthew 23:33: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?" (ditto above)

Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Matthew 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43-48: "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. For every one will be salted with fire." (said to disciples)

Luke 12:49: "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" (said to disciples, about Judgment day)

Luke 17:28-29: "but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all -- so it will be on the day when the Son of man is revealed." (said to disciples)

Luke 21:22: "for these are the days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written."(– to disciples in hearing of crowd).


Granted the last 3 were about the apocalypse but it still portrays not a merciful or just god but a violent and vengeful one

The Judeo-Christian god ( or gods) is not a "just" god almost of all his punishments do not fit the crime.

So I do not agree with Tuk22 first premise "God is Just" unless his talking about the god Ahura Mazda from the first monotheistic religion Zoroastrianism.

BTW Tuk " and eye for and eye " is the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, Yahweh had nothing to do with it. The hebrews incorportated in this law probably during the their captivity around 600 BCE



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2014 05:20AM by Fascinated_foreigner.
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 12, 2014 02:17AM
Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alter2Ego welcome
> I’ve read your post and felt I needed to
> respond.
>

Hello, Fascinated Foreigner. Thank you for the welcome.


Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s true that early Judaism had no concept of
> an afterlife or hell, these concepts were
> introduced by the Greeks. And the word ‘hell’
> in the English translation of the new testament
> is used for three different words; the Hebrew word
> Sheol which is similar to Hades, a place for the
> dead, Gehenna, which was a garbage dumb for the
> dead bodies of sinners, is used as a metaphor for
> the place sinner will be punished after judgment
> day and Tartarus were the fallen angels were
> sent.

You got some of it right as to the synonyms for "hell," with the exception of the two words that I bolded in red. The word "hell" is equivalent to the Hebrew word "Sheol" and equivalent to the Greek word "Hades." All three of those words (hell, Hades, Sheol) mean the same thing: the grave. The grave is a location. It is a place where we all go when we die.

The word "Gehenna" is equivalent to "the lake of fire," and both of those expressions refer to a condition. Specifically, "Gehenna" and "the lake of fire" refer to the condition of permanent destruction or permanent death.

The word "Tartarus" appears only once in the entire Bible (at 2 Peter 2:4) and is assigned only to the disobedient angels who rebelled against God prior to the flood of Noah's day. The word "Tartarus" is never assigned to humans.


"Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;" (2 Peter 2:4)


Tartarus is a condition of alienation from God. It is not permanent destruction like Gehenna and "the lake of fire."
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 12, 2014 02:42AM
Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now hell and the afterlife is mentioned quite a
> number of times in the gospels. So either the
> early Christians were heavily influenced by pagan
> religions on the concept of the afterlife or the
> gospel writers were. But there is no denying from
> the scriptures that eternal damnation in pain for
> sinners
and people who rejects his teaching and
> the holy spirit was part of Jesus’ teachings.

ALTER2EGO -to- FASCINATED FOREIGNER:

There is no literal pain for dead people in the Scriptures because death is the opposite of life.



Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry about the number of passages but I posted
> them to prove me point. When you read them you
> can’t simple brush off what Jesus was saying as
> all allegory and metaphors, from the emphasis of
> the subject matter one could easy conclude it was
> obviously integral to early Christianity.
>
> But I say to you that everyone who is angry with
> his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever
> insults his brother will be liable to the council;
> and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable
> to the hell of fire. Matthew 5.22



You are quoting a verse of scripture where Jesus is using figurative speech. The Bible says Jesus Christ always used illustrative speech when teaching people.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)


Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are gathered
> and burned with fire
, so will it be at the close
> of the age. The Son of man will send his angels,
> and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes
> of sin and evildoers, and throw them into the
> furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash
> their teeth."


Look at the words that I bolded in blue. You are quoting Jesus as he uses illustrative speech. He is using the comparison of weeds being burned in the above illustration. The "furnace of fire" is figurative speech for permanent destruction aka annihilation.


I will address a couple more of your supposed "hellfire torment" scriptures at another time.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 13, 2014 06:19AM
There is no literal pain for dead people in the Scriptures because death is the opposite of life.

That's not what Mark 9 43-48 implies. Why mention fire so many times if it he didn't imply there was going to be pain? why mention weeping and gnashing teeth.

The "furnace of fire" is figurative speech for permanent destruction aka annihilation.

How can you come to that conclusion? Jesus mentions eternal punishment in Matthew 25 verses 41 and 46.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 13, 2014 07:03AM
This is called Annihilationism and it's always been a minority view within Christianity. I don't think it's completely orthodox, but still not as heterodox as Universal Reconciliation. I'm inclined to think Gehinnom will be somewhere between eternal suffering and total annihilation... how that works out I don't know.

BTW I think Psalm 82 may also be a reference to Tartarus. Tartarus is the lowest depth of Hades.

Quote

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
“How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?
Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.”


Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nations!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2014 07:06AM by George___.
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 13, 2014 11:20PM
Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew 10:28: "And do not fear those who kill the
> body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who
> can destroy both soul and body in hell." (said to
> disciples)

ALTER2EGO -to- FASCINATED FOREIGNER:

You are quoting Jesus Christ as he uses Illustrative speech again. Also, you are using a Bible translation that incorrectly used the word "hell" instead of "Gehenna." Below is the same verse from another Trinitarian Bible, which correctly uses "Gehenna" where your translation uses "hell".


"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28 -- World English Bible)


The word "hell" refers to a location: the grave. Gehenna refers to a condition: permanent destruction aka annihilation. A location and a condition are two entirely different things.



Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew 18:8-9: "And if your hand or your foot
> causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away;
> it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame
> than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into
> the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to
> sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better
> for you to enter life with one eye than with two
> eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.." (said
> to disciples)

Whenever you are quoting Jesus Christ, you must remind yourself that he always taught by means of illustration. You are again quoting from a Bible translation that uses "hell of fire" where "Gehenna" is supposed to be. Jesus Christ is talking about permanent destruction aka annihilation when he says "hell of fire" (correctly translated "Gehenna of fire"winking smiley.

“And if your eye subverts you, pull it out and throw it from you, for it is better for you that you would enter life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, that you would fall into The Gehenna of fire." (Matthew 18:9 -- Aramaic Bible in Plain English)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2014 11:24PM by Alter2Ego.
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 14, 2014 12:14AM
Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew 22:2, 11-13: "The kingdom of heaven may be
> COMPARED to a king who gave a marriage feast for
> his son…
But when the king came in to look at
> the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding
> garment; and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you
> get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was
> speechless. Then the king said to the attendants,
> 'Bind him hand and foot, an cast him into the
> outer darkness
; there men will weep and gnash
> their teeth.'" (said to priests and Pharisees)

ALTER2EGO -to- FASCINATED FOREIGNER:

You are quoting another of Jesus' illustrations. He even started it off by explaining that the kingdom of heaven can be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast. Furthermore, that particular illustration does not make any mention of fire.



Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Matthew 23:15: "Wie to you, scribes and Pharisees,
> hypocrites! For you traverse sea and land to make
> a single proselyte, and when he becomes a
> proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of
> hell as yourselves." (spoken to crowds and
> disciples, about scribes and Pharisees)
>
> Matthew 23:33: "You serpents, you brood of vipers,
> how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"
> (ditto above)
>
> Matthew 25:41: "Then he will say to those at his
> left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the
> eternal fire prepared for the devil and his
> angels."
>
> Matthew 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal
> punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
>
>
> Mark 9:43-48: "And if your hand causes you to sin,
> cut it off; it is better for you to enter life
> maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the
> unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to
> sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter
> life lame than with two feet to be thrown into
> hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it
> out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of
> God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown
> into hell, where the worm does not die, and the
> fire is not quenched. For every one will be salted
> with fire." (said to disciples)
>
> Luke 12:49: "I came to cast fire upon the earth;
> and would that it were already kindled!" (said to
> disciples, about Judgment day)
>
> Luke 17:28-29: "but on the day when Lot went out
> from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and
> destroyed them all -- so it will be on the day
> when the Son of man is revealed." (said to
> disciples)
>
> Luke 21:22: "for these are the days of vengeance,
> to fulfill all that is written."(– to disciples
> in hearing of crowd).

I am not going to address anymore of your out-of-context verses, because you are quoting Jesus Christ in all of them, during which he is using illustrative speech. Illustrations are never literal.


Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Granted the last 3 were about the apocalypse but
> it still portrays not a merciful or just god but a
> violent and vengeful one
>
> The Judeo-Christian god ( or gods) is not a
> "just" god almost of all his punishments do not
> fit the crime.

There is only one Judeo-Christian God based upon scripture in Jehovah's inspired Word, the Bible.

"Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is ONE Jehovah." (Deuteronomy 6:4)


Your erroneous claim that Jehovah is unjust is based upon your bad habit of ignoring context when reading Scripture. Every single verse that you quoted are of Jesus speaking, while he was teaching groups of people. And what did the Bible say was Jesus' method of teaching? Notice the verse below that I previously quoted for you.


"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 17, 2014 06:12PM
Georgiey boy I can't believe you are resorting to the OT for your argument. Really?! Read Isaiah 45.7 bro.

Alterego.
What you're doing is what every apologist does. Cherry pick. I've posed a dozen passages that cleary state sinner will burn in hell for eternity and you try to write it off as allegory, so if all the passages I've quote are just allegory or metophors then it wouldn't be wrong to assume that all the passion of christ may be a metaphor is as well. Jesus really didn't get cruxified or rise from the dead it was just a metaphor.Make up you mind? Either Jesus ment what he said or he didn't.
Anonymous User
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
June 19, 2014 04:34AM
Fascinated_foreigner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Georgiey boy I can't believe you are resorting to
> the OT for your argument. Really?! Read Isaiah
> 45.7 bro.
>
> Alterego.
> What you're doing is what every apologist does.
> Cherry pick. I've posed a dozen passages that
> cleary state sinner will burn in hell for eternity

> and you try to write it off as allegory, so if
> all the passages I've quote are just allegory or
> metophors then it wouldn't be wrong to assume that
> all the passion of christ may be a metaphor is
> as well. Jesus really didn't get cruxified or rise
> from the dead it was just a metaphor.Make up you
> mind? Either Jesus ment what he said or he didn't.

ALTER2EGO -to- FASCINATED FOREIGNER:

Now, that is funny. You are accusing me of "cherry picking," after you quoted a wall of text containing a long list of out-of-context verses. Every single verse you presented was of Jesus either giving a parable (a story that is not real) or else he was using figurative speech, as indicated by context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). In fact, the Bible says that whenever Jesus Christ was teaching people, he always used illustrative speech.


"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)


Not only that, how do you expect dead people to literally feel pain from being burned in Christendom's version of Dante's fictional hell? In the Bible, Jehovah says he offers two choices: everlasting life or death.



"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)



Everlasting life is a gift from Jehovah, according to Romans 6:23. Death is the opposite of life. Either one is alive forever or else one is dead for ever, according to scripture. To hear you tell it, the dead are still alive.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2014 04:36AM by Alter2Ego.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
July 06, 2014 12:12AM
Every single verse you presented was of Jesus either giving a parable (a story that is not real) or else he was using figurative speech, as indicated by context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). - Alter2

What's "weeping and gnashing of teeth" a metaphor for?
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
July 15, 2014 04:05AM
George___ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is called Annihilationism and it's always
> been a minority view within Christianity. I don't
> think it's completely orthodox, but still not as
> heterodox as Universal Reconciliation. I'm
> inclined to think Gehinnom will be somewhere
> between eternal suffering and total
> annihilation... how that works out I don't know.
>

Magic! We all want to live in a magical world that we control. Some people are naive enough or ignorant enough or desperate enough to believe that they actually do.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
November 01, 2014 08:19AM
The largest and oldest Christian religion in the world, Roman Catholic, does not teach the Bible as the literal word of God. Rather they teach it as inspired by God. They also treat the Old Testament as having been replaced by the New Testament believing that the OT was given to the Jews as a guide pending the coming of Jesus Christ
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
November 08, 2014 10:30AM
Quote
The Popular Front
The largest and oldest Christian religion in the world, Roman Catholic, does not teach the Bible as the literal word of God. Rather they teach it as inspired by God. They also treat the Old Testament as having been replaced by the New Testament believing that the OT was given to the Jews as a guide pending the coming of Jesus Christ

What exactly does someone mean when he says the bible is "inspired by God"?

For one thing, he means that he believes God exists since it's kind of hard (actually impossible) for the nonexistent to inspire anything. So if an Omni-God exists and inspires someone to write a book, wouldn't that book be just as infallible and inerrant as if the Omni-God had written the book itself?

I would think so.

Saying that the bible is only "inspired by God" but not written by God is pretty much a meaningless distinction.
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
November 13, 2014 04:32AM
No it's not it's only meaningless to the narrow minded.

Some things are certain. Inspired by God.
Wise is wise and good advice is good advice, inspired by God or God breathed... Useful for education, instruction, moral suggestions and imperatives.

Seriously dude, you are making an argument for biblical innerancy arguing for church doctrine arguing for biblical certainty...
Re: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
November 22, 2014 10:12AM
So (Part I) if the bible says that homosexuality is an abomination, is homosexuality then an abomination?

And (Part II) does it make a difference in the above case whether those words in the bible were written by God himself or they were merely written by a person inspired by God to write those words?
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