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Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will

Posted by Anonymous User 
Regardless of your view on this topic, there is an interesting and lengthy article about Obama's involvement and decision making regarding killing terrorists. See [www.nytimes.com]

I didn't read these, but here probably are abridged versions of the above NY Times article. [www.google.com]
Greenwald has a couple excellent articles on the topic and on Obama in general this week.

[www.salon.com]

I suggest people read them.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 30, 2012 06:07AM
What principles?


Mac
I'll be reading that NYT article today.

In the meantime, here's a hilarious The Word segment from Stephen Colbert entitled Due or Die:

[www.motherjones.com]
I don't even see why there has to be a pretense of a constitutional justification for killing Anwar al-Awlaki. He was wanted by Yemen dead or alive. He was killed in Yemen. Killing him there isn't a crime, in fact there was reward for killing him. Yemen is not complaining. Some usually clear thinking people won't or can't admit that Anwar al-Awlaki was a very unsavory character with direct connections to terrorists plots and killings. It's not realistic to think that he could have been taken alive. He certainly wasn't intending to voluntarily turn himself in and face trial.

Just as it was for the common good that Ma Barkers gang, Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillinger (in Bohemia, Wisconsin), Erik Rudolph, Timothy McVeigh, etc. were not allowed to roam free, so too was it in the case of al-Awlaki.
Why is this intelligence being released? I mean really, is there ANYONE in this administration that isn;t some sort of political hack and knows their job?

Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 12:00AM
If he was killed by the Yemeni government, then that would be the responsibility of the Yemeni government. Since he was killed in Yemen by the US government, the US government has violated international law. Do you believe in abiding by international law including treaties that the US is signatory to Curt and Whats?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 12:25AM by Kairos.
Absolutely.
Kairos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If he was killed by the Yemeni government, then
> that would be the responsibility of the Yemeni
> government. Since he was killed in Yemen by the
> US government, the US government has violated
> international law. Do you believe in abiding by
> international law including treaties that the US
> is signatory to Curt?


Show me where any international court is calling what happened to al-Awlaki a violation of international law.

Let me put this into language and a scenario that you can understand. It might be illegal to smoke pot in the bars where you live, but if you go to Copenhagen you can toke up to your heart's content and not be in violation of any laws back home. Just because something is illegal in your nation doesn't make it illegal elsewhere---and vice versa.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 12:27AM
Bravo Whats!

Quote
Show me where any international court is calling what happened to al-Awlaki a violation of international law.

Whether there is an active prosecution is irrelevant. The fact is the crime against Al-Awlaki violates the Geneva Convention and the UN Declaration of International Human Rights, both of which the US government is signatory to.

Quote
Let me put this into language and a scenario that you can understand. It might be illegal to smoke pot in the bars where you live, but if you go to Copenhagen you can toke up to your heart's content and not be in violation of any laws back home. Just because something is illegal in your nation doesn't make it illegal elsewhere---and vice versa.

Smoking cannabis does not violate international law.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
He was wanted by Yemen dead or alive.

Correction: He was wanted by the U.S. puppet government in Yemen dead or alive.
Irrelevant.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 03:40AM
Curt,
We have a set of rules we wrote for ourselves.
We call these rules The Constitution of the United States.
If we do not follow our own rules, how are we any different than our supposed enemies?

It's not about who Anwar al-Alicki was.
It's about who WE are.
Principles matter.


Mac
HHH
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 03:41AM
Then those darn puppets are responsible. I've had enough of puppets bombing people. Is there no shame anymore?

____________________________________________
Ebola - Being Contained in a Neighborhood Near Me.
Mac McFadden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Curt,
> We have a set of rules we wrote for ourselves.
> We call these rules The Constitution of the United
> States.
> If we do not follow our own rules, how are we any
> different than our supposed enemies?
>
> It's not about who Anwar al-Alicki was.
> It's about who WE are.
> Principles matter.
>
>
> Mac

Mac,
Would you seriously expect constitutional protection in Yemen? The Constitution of the United States isn't global protection for Americans, especially treasonous Americans.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 04:09AM
Whose talking about global protection? We`re talking about the US government going out and killing US citizens abroad.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Kairos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whose talking about global protection? We`re
> talking about the US government going out and
> killing US citizens abroad.

You don't know what you are talking about. What laws protected al-Awlaki? Not the US Constitution or US laws, he was outside the US jurisdiction. Not the laws of Yemen, he was a wanted man there. Furthermore, the very fact that he was in Yemen showed the lengths he was willing to go to escape.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 04:26AM
As I already said: International Law (the law that rules beyond US borders). This includes both the Geneva Convention and the International Declaration on Universal Human Rights both of which the US is a signatory too.

[www.un.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.icrc.org] (Full Geneva Convention)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 04:38AM by Kairos.
Kairos,
The Geneva convention and international law doesn't preclude killing enemies. It talks about a "protected class" such as prisoners of war, etc. Al-Awlaki didn't make the protected list.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 04:33AM
You need to read the Geneva convention more carefully. The Geneva convention is brilliant in that it makes precise mention that there is no ambiguity between a POW and a civillian. A person falls under either one category or the other. Both are afforded protection according to international law.

Quote
Kairos, The Geneva convention and international law doesn't preclude killing enemies.

From the Universal Declaration on Human Rights:

Article 3.

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 18.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 20.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

Article 30.

Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2012 04:59AM by Kairos.
Kairos,
You must believe that international law and the Geneva Convention outlaws war and any use of force in apprehending criminals. I guess you must think that police are always violating international law and the Geneva Convention.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 05:09AM
Curt not at all, and I have no idea what smoky realm you pulled that fantasy out of.


Article 6 of the International Bill of Rights signed and ratified by the US

1. Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.

[www2.ohchr.org]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Kairos,
As you realize there have not been any criminal charges from international courts in regards to al-Awlaki's death. Don't you wonder why, if your legal opinion is correct? It's for the same reason that international courts didn't condemn the police for killing John Dillinger or countless other criminals who met untimely deaths at the hands of the authorities.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 05:26AM
There were also no criminal charges brought towards Al Awlaki by the US government which once again reiterates the clear violation of international law that states:

Article 16

Everyone shall have the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

1. Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.

[www2.ohchr.org]


The fact there has been no trial, does not change the fact that international law has been violated, any more than the many trials that never happened to war criminals in the history of the world does not mean that they are not war criminals and have violated international law.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Kairos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The fact there has been no trial, does not change
> the fact that international law has been violated,
> any more than the many trials that never happened
> to war criminals in the history of the world does
> not mean that they are not war criminals and have
> violated international law.


So you are the judge and jury now? If international law courts aren't charging Obama or anyone else with murder, as you apparently would, I'm not going to second guess them.

Kairos, you must respect the opinion of the courts including international tribunals---even when you disagree. Especially when you disagree. When people don't respect the courts decisions and non-decisions, we become a lawless, vigilante society.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 05:39AM
Rubbish, just because there isnt a trial doesnt negate a warcrime. Dont play the fool Curt. There have been thousands upon thousands of war criminals who were never brought to trial, that does not change the fact that they are war criminals that have violated international law.

Incidentally once again you fail to see the irony that Awlaki never had a trial himself, which further is a violation of international law.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Not only has there not been a trial, no court has issued charges in regards, to al-Awlaki's death. However, Al-Awlaki was charged in absentia in Yemen for some capital crimes. That's why he was a wanted man there.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 06:42AM
Then it is the responsibilty for the Yemeni govt to get him.

As for your twisted logic Adolph Hitler never received an international trial for war crimes. That does not mean he is not a war criminal.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Kairos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Then it is the responsibilty for the Yemeni govt
> to get him.
>

No it wasn't. Not to mention, gave the US approval to get al-Awlaki. You never heard of somebody with a bounty on their heads? Does the phrase "wanted dead or alive" ring a bell? That means anybody can collect the reward. We were eligible to collect the reward, but didn't because it wasn't about the money. That would be unseemly.

> As for your twisted logic Adolph Hitler never
> received an international trial for war crimes.
> That does not mean he is not a war criminal.

Being dead means you don't have to go to court. That's the law.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 06:58AM
Quote
No it wasn't. Not to mention, gave the US approval to get al-Awlaki. You never heard of somebody with a bounty on their heads? Does the phrase "wanted dead or alive" ring a bell? That means anybody can collect the reward. We were eligible to collect the reward, but didn't because it wasn't about the money. That would be unseemly.

Wow this is the new image of the US?




Quote
Being dead means you don't have to go to court. That's the law.

Hitler was never given an international trial during his lifetime.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Is that you in your Jango Fett outfit?
Curt Wrote: Would you seriously expect constitutional protection in Yemen? The Constitution of the United States isn't global protection for Americans, especially treasonous Americans.


The US Constitution applies to ALL US citizens regardless of where they are in the world.

Was there a trial with two witnesses attesting to treason? No.

Was there even a trial? No.

Were there even charges brought in a court of law? No.

Did he have a chance for a fair trial? No.

Was he assassinated without due process on orders from the president in contradiction to US laws and in violation of his Constitutional rights? Yes.

On top of thst his sixteen year old son was assassinated a week later and no one had even accused him of anything in the US.

Obama broke the law,, violated the constitutional rights of an American citizen who was accused of preaching. Of practicing his religion. If he was inciting terrorists or whatever they said he did then that should have been brought into a court of law to be determined.

Obama should be impeached and imprisoned for his crimes against the Constitution.
HHH
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 07:08AM
Was he a member of a group Congress authorized the use of force against?

____________________________________________
Ebola - Being Contained in a Neighborhood Near Me.
Cascade Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Curt Wrote: Would you seriously expect
> constitutional protection in Yemen? The
> Constitution of the United States isn't global
> protection for Americans, especially treasonous
> Americans.
>
>
> The US Constitution applies to ALL US citizens
> regardless of where they are in the world.
>

Baloney. Try going door to door with a bag full of Watchtower magazines in Iran. Or start up an alternative newspaper in Zimbabwe.


> Was there a trial with two witnesses attesting to
> treason? No.
>
Probably. The trial was in Yemen.

> Was there even a trial? No.

Yes, there was.

>
> Were there even charges brought in a court of law?
> No.
>
Yes, there was.


> Did he have a chance for a fair trial? No.
>

Yes, he was tried in absentia. Perhaps if he had attended the trial he could have presented a better defense.


> Was he assassinated without due process on orders
> from the president in contradiction to US laws and
> in violation of his Constitutional rights? Yes.

He was not in America when he was killed. His US Constitutional rights were not an issue. He was in a Yemeni jurisdiction. If Yemen has a constitution, his rights as far as they went were protected by it.

>
> On top of thst his sixteen year old son was
> assassinated a week later and no one had even
> accused him of anything in the US.

He wasn't the target, he was traveling with the wrong people--namely al Qaeda types.

>
> Obama broke the law,, violated the constitutional
> rights of an American citizen who was accused of
> preaching. Of practicing his religion. If he was
> inciting terrorists or whatever they said he did
> then that should have been brought into a court of
> law to be determined.

Yes. We know. You keep saying that yet nothing happens. Sort of like when you keep telling us the Ron Paul is really winning the GOP nomination yet Paul never declares victory. He doesn't even campaign anymore.

>
> Obama should be impeached and imprisoned for his
> crimes against the Constitution.

You keep saying that yet nothing happens. Apparently people don't agree with your legal opinions.
HHH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Was he a member of a group Congress authorized the
> use of force against?


By George, HHH, you are correct! In fact, Congress “the greatest deliberative body known to man” deliberated it. That sounds like due deliberation and due process to me.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 07:46AM
Congress is capable of violating international law. Yeah something to be proud of. Yee Haww we're #1!

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Kairos,
Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it illegal. There was no violation of international or any other law. AMUF was essentionally a declaration of war against al Qaeda.

One would think that al-Awlaki was a meek and mild member of an Eagle Scout troop the way you are carrying on about him.
Re: Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
May 31, 2012 08:03AM
You dont know how to read do you Curt? How many times do I have to post international law for you to acknowledge its existence?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Kairos,
Your interpretation of international law (and US law and Yemeni law) is simply incorrect. That's why what you think should happen, hasn't happened.
1st, that's Boba Fett. Can't even get that straight. sheesh.

Second, the Constitution applies to all US citizens in regards to our own government.

It matters not that he may have been tried in Yemen by their courts, what matters is OUR judicial system.

In 1957 the Supreme Court ruled in Reid v. Covert that when the government acts abroad by reaching out and punishing an American citizen for his acts outside of the United States, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution should not be stripped away just because the citizen happens to be in another country.

There have been numerous countries that have charged American citizens with all kinds of crimes in kangaroo courts and the US does no recognize the charges. In fact, because our rights extend outside the US in regards to our own judicial system there have been many times when someone has been found "guilty" in another country (say a place that kills people for a joint) and our government has worked hard to get them back and ensure their rights.

When our government goes out and simply assassinates a US citizen without charges, without due process (and yes, that means judicial process not just "a process that you do" ) and without giving the accused the opportunity to defend themselves in a court of law, then our government is breaking the law and should be held accountable.

Awlaki was accused and suspected but never charged nor were the accusations proven. To then have him assassinated on suspicion and to say it was because of his preaching violates so many laws it's not funny. And then add in the fact that our government assassinated his 16 year old son, for what? Association?

Now, was he guilty? Probably. Would he have been able to get out of charges in a court of law? probably not.

But that's no reason to ignore our laws and simply kill him.

But, they did. And they have proven by doing so that we are not a nation of laws and that the law is totally worthless and subjective therefore rendering it void.

Obama has done this. Obama has gone farther than Bush could have ever hoped and he has done so with the support of the spineless dems who refuse to see what he is actually doing and hold him accountable for his crimes.
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