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Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.

Posted by Anonymous User 
Jenneifer Sheehan, Legal Counsel for the RNC, plainly stated in a 2008 letter to Nancy Lord, Utah National Committeewoman, several weeks before the convention,

“The RNC does not recognize a state's binding of national delegates, but considers each delegate a 'free agent' who can vote for whoever they choose.

The national convention allows delegates to vote for the individual of their choice, regardless of whether the person's name is officially placed into the nomination or not.”


This was the result in 08 of an explination from the RNC lawyer regarding a Utah delegate who wanted to switch his vote from McCain to, whoda thunk?, Romney.

And the issue for the ORmney camp this time around is that he really doesn't have the delegate count that the MSM is giving him. In fact there an increasing chance (which is quickly turning into a very good chance or a absolute certainty) that he won't have the delegates to win the first round.

Romney has only won 18 states and of the delegates selected in those states many are actually Ron Paul supporters. Paul has won 11 states in which delegates are elected as well... so Romney may not have nearly as many delegates as the MSM would have us believe and the RNC and the Romney campaign are starting to panic.

This race is now wide open. And Ron Paul is almost now at a 50/50 chance to take the nomination in the first round!

Read it for yourself...

Cassie wrote: And Ron Paul is almost now at a 50/50 chance to take the nomination in the first round!

I find it difficult to believe that even someone as loosely moored to reality as you are would believe that.
Craziness at the OK convention!


Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 12:25AM
Didn't Ron Paul call MLK Day "Hate Whitey Day"? Isn't that pretty racist? Well, at least he's got that in common with the other repubs. Cas, Why do you like Paul so much?? Or is it that you just hate Obama and Romney that much? Still gonna pay up on our bet when Obama wins?
Ron Paul is the only one of the three who would actually support at least some progressive platforms, has worked with the Progressive Caucus, opposes the misuse of our military for illegal and unjust wars of aggression, opposes the Patriot Act, the NDAA, the various actions taken by both the Bush and Obama Admins to destroy our civil liberties and constitutional protections, etc. etc. etc.

I could compile a list of about a hundred reasons to vote for Paul over Romney or Obama and only a few reasons not to vote for Paul. Weighed against eich other the reasons to support Paul over Romney or Obama far outweigh the few bad points against Paul.

And, if you will keep up, it seems that the RNC pre-crafted scenario where Romney has this cinched and is moving on, is totally unraveling and the number of delegates for Paul being sent to Tampa may outnumber the Romney delegates.

That's not make believe Sam. That's being reported and is being shown in the numbers and the RNC rules.

The Paul camp is overrunning the GOP and will take over before the convention. That means they will be the majority at Tampa and will be able to change the rules by majority vote.

The RNC "Victory Campaign" has already pledged to support Paul 100% if he is the nominee coming out of Tampa and there are so many procedural challenges to the Romney delegates that have been forced through against the wishes of the state convention voters that the circus in Tampa will be, if nothing else, one of the best nominating conventions in modern history!
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 12:46AM
Aren't delegate slates picked by the candidates ahead of the primaries? It would be unlikely many of them would desert their candidate if he were still in the race.

What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
You really haven't been keeping up with this have you HHH?

The delegate selection process is seperate from the primary or caucus votes in each state. Some states have been supposed "winner take all" but that has changed and as I pointed out in the OP, even the RNC doesn't recognize "bound" delegates.

So a delegate may vote for the candidate of his or her choice at the nominating convention in Tampa. Even if the candidate they want to vote for is not on the ballot.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 12:55AM
I think you're incorrect at least in the case of primaries. Are yon contending that delegates are selected without regard to presidential preference in primary states? That isn't how it's done in Ohio, for example.

What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Beleive is happening.
Uh, No, that was a misqoute. The facts were actually that he was against the idea of making it a holiday as "he was afraid it would be made into a "Hate Whitey Day" so he did not vote for it. Thankfully that was not what happened. Ron paul actually is best friends with the President of the NAACP for 209 years now, and has championed more civil liberties than any politician in our time.
No, they are picked by the committee.
29 years, not 209 501st.

HHH, the primary states where it's supposedly "winner take all" and the delegates are told that they have to vote for the winner of the primary regardless of their own personal choice are under the same guidelines as every other delegation going to Tampa. Meaning that they are not "bound" by the state results and are, in fact, free agents able to vote for who they want at the national convention.

In Ohio, the presidential candidates select who will be their delegates before hand and those people are then placed based on the results of the vote. However, that doesn't mean that those delegates can not be convinced to vote for someone other than the candidate who selected them. It may be unlikely that they will switch votes, but there is certainly a possibility that they might if convinced.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 02:55AM
This from the Ron Paul Newsletter, the February 1990 edition:

"Boy, it sure burns me to have a national holiday for that pro-communist philanderer, Martin Luther King. I voted against this outrage time and time again as a Congressman. What an infamy that Ronald Reagan approved it... We can thanks him for our annual Hate Whitey Day."
And Obama was frinds with a former Weatherman. Your point?

Paul is the only anti-war constitutionalist between the three (Obama, Romney and Paul) and he's the only one that even comes close to representing any of the Progressive platform. Obama sure doesn't and Romney is so far from it as to be laughable.

You want to vote for the lesser evil? Vote Paul.

You want to vote for a force of good? Vote third party.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 03:01AM
Delegates are legally bound for a certain number of ballots to vote for who party voters supported. Are you saying that this won't happen at the GOP convention?

What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 03:05AM
And Obama was frinds with a former Weatherman. Your point?

What's your point? First of all I'm not advocating for anyone to vote for Obama. Secondly, just because you're friends with someone doesn't mean you condone all their beliefs or actions. There are people I love who are racists. That doesn't mean I'm also a racist.

And to be fair, just because Ron Paul made extremely racist remarks 20 years ago doesn't necessarily make him a racist today, although I strongly suspect he still is, but just can't admit it because that would alienate prospective voters.
HHH, they're not legaly bound to anything. The RNC is a private club. There are no state, local or national laws that "bind" a delegate and there's no legal consequence for voting for who you want to vote for as a delegate.

You are falling for the lie that any delegate is "bound" to vote for the candidate they are told to vote for. It's simply not true.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 03:18AM
In fact, there are state laws governing the process to varying degrees.

What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 07:05AM
The states make the rules. So yeah - the national RNC doesn't bind any delegates to their candidates - the states do.

I'm at the point where I honestly believe Cascade has never seen a political convention.
And, because it's essentially a private club, like the Oddfellows or the Beaver Lodge, none of the "rules" are binding or have any legal clout.

And Indy, I was at the Arizona convention yesterday.
Oh, and if you cared to watch the videos and streams from teh OK convnetion you would know that the chaos there was all in favor of Paul with the Romney camp trying every dirty trick in the book,, Just like here in AZ, to go against the majority.

See, in the GOP (this is what I'm learning first hand) it's a Republican system and not Democratic.

Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 05:51PM
Chaos in Arizona? No way!

I'm talking about the NATIONAL convention, Cascade - where they will NOT be picking your candidate. So what if ARI-frakkin-ZONA is going whacko again? Obviously it's in their nature - there's something wrong with that state. It's not happening where it matters - in the big states... Florida, California, NY... your boy is winning the crazy states. The ones nobody cares about.
He's taking delegates from Romney. Those delegates go to the national convention.

And if it becomes widely known that the delegates are not "bound" then I have a feeling Romney will lose many more.

Mitt Romney only has 312 actual delegates to Paul 110. That a LONG way from the 1144 needed to win. It's still anyone's game at this point and Paul has superior organization.

Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 07:25PM
The Daily Paul says the count is 562 / 204. So you Paul folks can't even get your numbers straight.


RCP says its 949 / 99


Guaranteed that's the one the RNC is using.
There's no solid count. RCP is using the AP assumed count which is wrong as has been shown in state after state. They are simply predicting what may happen at upcoming state conventions. It's not until the state convention that actual delegate numbers are known.

The RNC is being blasted by procedural challenges and the ROmney camp is using direty tricks and being called out on it. There may be some punishment for their tricks as challenges are brought up at the national convention.

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out in Tampa and the remaining state conventions.

There's still a long way to go before Romney is the nominee and I don't think he will be due to multiple factors. Not the least of which is the fact that his organization is crap and he's actively losing delegates in states he "won".
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 07:44PM
Even if that were totally true (and we both know it's only partially so) - why would they give the nomination to Ron Paul? I guy who hasn't won a single state? That's the rub. When it comes to who the party (meaning both the party machine AND the general populace) - Ron Paul loses. Your scenario calls for the least likely end result possible - that the guy who hasn't won anything, a guy who's merely manipulated the system - becomes the nominee against the wishes of the majority. When has anything even REMOTELY like that occurred in American politics?

Answer? Never.

And btw, apparently at the OKC convention the RP supporters were jeering Josh Romney by calling Mitt "the white Obama". So much for "no racism" from the Paul crowd.
He actually has won states. And he's continuing to win states.

So he didn't win all the straw polls. So what? That's not where the fight is won anyway.

In fact the Paul Campaign is using the Republican system, following the rules set out by the RNC and the states and winning.

And no, it was the OK convention. It was the AZ convention. And Josh Romney actually finished his speech and then, against convnetion rules, tried to come back to the mic to promote the Romney slate. He was booed for breaking the rules. It happened all day long and we finally had to reconvene outside with a quorum to finish party business for the day because the Romeny supporters left, the party chairman ended up being inundated with points of order for himself breaking rules even after he was read the rules, ... well there so many shenanigans I can't even begin to list them all.

The Romney camp released the "story" that Josh Romney had been "booed off stage" which is totally false. He left the mic to polite applause and then came back to plug his dad and their crappy tactics.

OK was an even bigger mess. Evidently they too reconvened in the parking lot and, following the rules as well, elected their delegates.

The AZ party tools have yet to release the totals but if the rules are followed Paul took a majority. If they're not then there will be two delegations going to Tamps from AZ and there will be challenges at the national convention. Again, like other states, the people who followed the rules have video, a professional parlimentarian, and plenty of eyewitnesses to back up their case. The Romney camp has nothing.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 08:10PM
He hasn't won any POPULAR votes is what I'm saying. You keep trying to confuse the issue by saying Paul "won" because he managed to rig the system and take more delegates in a (very) few states. That is NOT "winning". And I fail to see why you would be upset about Romney coming back to the mic a second time as though that's some kind of major transgression when your entire strategy for... ahem... "winning" is based on deception - fooling the people and upending their vote.

THAT'S the problem. It's not "can you cheat your way to enough delegates" - the problem is IF you manage to do it - how do you get around the fact you have nominated the guy NOBODY WANTS? Do you expect all the people who voted for Romney (and even Gingrich and Santorum) to just say "Oh well - he got the delegates - the nomination belongs to Ron Paul..." Or is it more likely the MAJORITY who want Romney (or other non-Paul candidates) toss your MINORITY out of the convention? (again).
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 08:17PM
Um, yeah. Why can't you see that, Cas?
There's no deception in the delegate strategy. In fact it's been the stated strategy since the begining. The Paul campaign can't hope to match Romney's over-the-top spending so they will be fought using the process that's in place, according to the rules set up under the republican system.

There's no deception. there's no dirty tricks. It's all laid out very clearly and openly.

The so-called "popular" votes have been full of all kinds of irregularities and manipulation. Sure the Paul campaign could wast time and money with challenges and recounts but their resources are better spent gaining actual delegates.

What good would it do to prove that Paul won Main when he loses the delegates?

What good would it do trying to press a legal challenge against what's essentially a private club with no legally binding rules, only parlamentary procedures?

The Nevada GOP chairwoman resigned because of vote manipulation, votes counted in private with no oversight, counties and precincts left out of totals, stories of voter fraud and manipulation in state after state. Results being officially announced before even half the votes are counted. Large blacks of votes "lost" and then just allocated to Romney (in one case Romeny and Santorum)... and the list goes on and on.

How do you, with a limited campaign budget and time, investigate and then fight every instance? You don't. You focus on what actually matters. The Delegates.

There's no cheating but on Romney's side as can be seen being played out in convention after convention. However because of the focus on the delegates and the conventions, the Paul camp has the organization and numbers to ensure that there is at least some ballance to the manipulation.

The establishment didn't expect to haveto face challenges on the convention floors and they were not ready for it. The Paul people were and with each convention they are learning more and becoming more prepared for the next one.

What you fail to realise is that this is a republican process, not a democratic one and the "popular vote" (which you know isn't part of our presidental election system) is just a straw poll.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 08:58PM
Anytime you award most or all of a state's delegates to candidate who didn't win the primary in that state, it can be called deception because it's gaming the system to the point that the outcome doesn't reflect at all what the voters wanted. Paul only garnered 15% of the GOP vote in the states his small but exuberant supporters are trying to steal from the clear majority who voted for his opponents. That's gross deception.
No. That's the way the system is set up.

The republican system is designed to weed out the less motivated voters and the uninformed. And that's exactly what's happening.

And they've been very clear about it since the begining. Hell, since 2008.


The Romney camp knew exactly what the Paul campaign was going for and had ample time to prepare.

However, if you can't even win the delegates in the states you won the straw poll votes for, how can you expect to have the organization to defeat Obama?

Romney's losing on multiple fronts and it's because he's losing it himself, not because Paul's strategy is unexpected or coming out of left field to surprise.
Ron Paul delegate strategy is perfectly legitimate
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 09:08PM
That's the way the system is set up. - Cas

The system was set up to make the loser the winner? Really? I don't believe that for a second.
The system is set up to ensure that the delegates voting for the nominee are voted in by representitives set up under the state and precinct rules.

I didn't create this system. In fact the RNC is such a screwed up orginzation that there's really no way to win other than to fight for the delegates.

The "elections" don't mean anything. It's the convnetions where the delegates are selected that actually matter.

I think that this process is necessary to show the GOP how outdated and stupid their entire process is and I hope that we can do it to the DNC as well in the future.

But for now, this is the way it stands.

Just because one candidate can outspend the others doesn't mean that he or she should get the nomination and the republican process is set up to keep the option for voting for the best candidate open. And that's what's going to happen. WHich is why I think Romney will lose. The GOP just doesn't care about him enough to defend against the onslaught.

AZ is supposedly a Romney state and even so the Romney camp had to resort to dirty tricks, rule breaking and walking out before the convention was adjourned in order to even take part.

By walking out, they forefitted their input in the process.

Voters, by not following up on their vote, forefitted their input in the process.

The real vote is at the convention according to RNC rules.
Mulva, you're pretending that the Rubs play fair. They don't.

By trying to rig the system back in 08 through verious RNC rule changes they actually created a huge door for Paul's strategy to work.

If Santorum and/or Gingrich were still in the race they would be picking up delegates as well. However they didn't have the power to take their fight to the floors of the conventions. SO they dropped out.

Romney, as the supposed presumptive nominee, has rested on his laurals and is losing the fight on the floors.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 09:28PM
WHich is why I think Romney will lose. - Cas

I don't believe you really believe that. I think you're just trying to be as upbeat and hopeful as possible.
Re: Oops! There may be no such thing as "bound" delegates in the GOP race.
May 14, 2012 09:32PM
Mulva, you're pretending that the Rubs play fair. They don't.

I'm not pretending anything, especially that. I fully expected from the beginning that the Republican leadership would crown Mitt the new GOP hopeful no matter what. And they will.
I'm watching him lose delegates across the country as the states hold their conventions. I'm just looking at the numbers and making my prediction based on that.

I'm watching the feeds from the conventions as they happen, following up with the videos posted and articles written by people who were there. I'm seeing Romney's strategy lose in state after state as the Paulbots become more organized, more informed and more prepared for each consecuative convention. By the time Tampa rolls around there will be professional parlamentarians in every delegation, there will be official observes selected to oversee the votes, there will be as many delegates and alternates as can be amassed.

If Romney can't step up his game he WILL lose.

When I moved here to AZ I made the conscience decision to become involved in the Republican Party in order to influence it. A lot of other people have done the same. We are moving the beast and the establishment doens't know what to do about it. They have no experience with such a takeover.

I plan on voting for th emost gay and liberal Republican I can find. And when I can't find that I'll vote for the most constitutional. Hell, I may even run for a city or state position myself in the next election in a few years.

The Democratic party is a lost cause in my opinion and more good can be done behind the enemy's walls than it can in a party that will elect someone like Obama and continue to support him after all he's done.
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