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Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'

Posted by jazzman 
Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 14, 2008 11:37PM
Dear MoveOn member,
Can you imagine living in a place where birth control is considered an "abortion" and health insurers won't cover it? Where even rape victims are denied emergency contraception?

It seems unbelievable, but the Bush Administration is quietly trying to redefine "abortion" to include birth control. The Houston Chronicle says this could wipe out dozens of state laws that protect women's reproductive freedom and protect rape victims.1 Access to basic health care for millions of women would be jeopardized. And it's being pushed as a "rule change"—meaning, it doesn't need congressional approval.

Can you sign an emergency message to Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt, whose department is considering this rule change right now? Tell him: "Contraception is NOT abortion. The Bush Administration's proposal to change the definition of abortion and reduce women's access to birth control must be stopped."

Clicking here will add your name to this message:
[pol.moveon.org]

The best way to beat back this proposal is to show Secretary Leavitt massive public outrage—that's why today we're launching this petition jointly with Planned Parenthood Action Fund. Together, we'll deliver every signature to Leavitt. You can help add to our momentum by forwarding this message to friends.

Here's what some others are saying about this proposal:

The draft regulation would define birth control as abortion...it could deny access to critical family planning for women across the country .—Letter signed by Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and 26 other senators.2

The draft rule could void laws in 27 states that require insurance companies to provide birth control coverage for women requesting it [and] laws in 14 states requiring that rape victims receive counseling and access to emergency, day-after contraceptives .—Houston Chronicle editorial 3

The administration needs to stop playing word games with women's health and state clearly they will reject any regulations that will undermine women's access to basic health care. —Cecile Richards, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America.4


[It's] a spectacular act of complicity with the religious right. .. —RH Reality Check, Information and Analysis for Reproductive Health5

The birth control pill, the IUD, and emergency contraception might all become unavailable—illegal—as a result. —Brigid Riley, executive director of a Minnesota teen pregnancy prevention organization 6

Can you help send a loud message to Secretary Leavitt that birth control is NOT abortion? Clicking here will sign your name:
[pol.moveon.org]

Thanks for all you do.

–Nita, Laura, Patrick S., Adam G., and the rest of the team


Sources:

1. "Redefining abortion; Federal officials considering a rule allowing health care workers to refuse to provide contraceptives," Houston Chronicle, August 10, 2008
[www.chron.com]

2. Letter to Secretary Mike Leavitt from Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and 26 other senators, July 23, 2008
[www.moveon.org]


3. "Redefining abortion; Federal officials considering a rule allowing health care workers to refuse to provide contraceptives," Houston Chronicle editorial, August 10, 2008
[www.chron.com]

4. "Birth control: is administration backing down—or not?" Los Angeles Times blog, August 8, 2008
[www.moveon.org]

5. "HHS Moves to Define Contraception as Abortion," RH Reality Check, July 15, 2008
[www.moveon.org]

6. "White House Considering Contraception Restrictions," Public News Service, August 11, 2008
[www.moveon.org]
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 14, 2008 11:41PM
We've been arguing about this over in the philosophy forum. I have been informed that oral contraception can act as an abortifacient rather than contraception, because it denies a fertilized egg the opportunity to thrive, thereby killing or "aborting" it. Since medically, pregnancy begins at conception or fertilization of the egg, they tell me that not allowing the fertilized egg to thrive in my uterus is the same as aborting a baby, only I'm unaware of it. Personally, I find this position to be pretty much unfounded, as does the Christian Medical and Dental Assn.
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 12:06AM
Yea gods.

I don't understand why we would want to outlaw abortion, day-after contraception or traditional contraception.

What's next?

They wanna' outlaw stillbirths? The mother obviously couldn' keepthe child alive and is responsible for it's death... are they going to call that murder?

Why don't we take care of the children that are already born.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 12:19AM
When some of us screamed for impeachment a few months ago, someone posed the question: '. . . . how much damage could he possibly do in the short time he has left on his term?'

Since the time that question was asked, we have seen Bush respond to the challenge by committing outrage after outrage. Now this;

Redefining abortion
Federal officials considering a rule allowing health care workers to refuse to provide contraceptives

Houston Chronicle
Aug. 10, 2008, 11:15PM


The Bush administration has consistently opposed providing funding for international birth control programs, but until now has not tried to limit the use of contraceptives inside the United States.

That could change in the president's final months in office. Health and Human Services officials are considering a draft regulation that would classify most birth control pills, the Plan B emergency contraceptive and intrauterine devices as forms of abortion because they prevent the development of fertilized eggs into fetuses.

The rule, which does not require congressional approval, would allow health care workers who object to abortion on moral or religious grounds to refuse to counsel women on their birth control options or supply contraceptives. It would forbid more than half a million health agencies nationwide that receive federal funds from requiring employees to provide such services. Pharmacists could use the rule as a justification for refusing to fill birth control prescriptions, and insurance companies could cite it as a basis for declining to cover the costs.

An existing regulation allows health care providers with objections to abortion to abstain from providing it to patients. By extending the definition of abortion to cover contraceptives, federal officials are attempting to create by administrative fiat what would fail by a wide margin in Congress.

In fact, the draft rule could void laws in 27 states that require insurance companies to provide birth control coverage for women requesting it. The rule also could counter laws in 14 states requiring that rape victims receive counseling and access to emergency, day-after contraceptives. It would also require federal agencies and states to provide funds for sham family planning clinics that provide women only abstinence counseling.

The enactment of such rules would have an immediate impact in Southeast Texas, where state health officials estimate more than half a million women are in need of affordable family planning services. Rochelle Tafolla, a spokeswoman for Planned Parenthood of Houston and Southeast Texas Inc., warns that enactment of the regulation would endanger women's health.

According to Tafolla, "In a time when more and more families are uninsured and feeling the financial strain of a bad economy, it's pretty incredible that the Bush administration is actually trying to put up roadblocks for women trying to access basic health care." Planned Parenthood strongly opposes the proposed rule "and will be fighting to preserve women's access to health care information."

Planned Parenthood is not alone in its opposition. The American Medical Association, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and a bipartisan group of 112 members of Congress have weighed in against the draft regulation.

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama has signed a letter of protest written by a group of U.S. senators. (Republican candidate John McCain has not taken a position.)

Health and Human Services officials issued a statement claiming the regulation would not alter existing rules and is simply designed to protect health care workers from discrimination based on their views of certain medical procedures. That ignores the fact that defining some forms of contraception as abortion is a radical departure from the status quo.

As with a spate of administrative regulations undermining environmental enforcement that the administration has pushed as its time in office grows short, this one is a payoff to social conservatives who oppose abortion and contraception. Since polls show that an overwhelming percentage of the American people support birth control, such backdoor tactics are the only way such restrictions could be considered, let alone enacted.

Justifying these draft rules as an anti-discrimination measure would be laughable, if it weren't so undemocratic and dangerous to American women. If HHS Secretary Michael Leavitt is irresponsible enough to approve the regulation, Congress and the next president should make sure it is short-lived.

[www.chron.com]
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 04:01AM
I think that monty python song every sperm is a sacred sperm was written about america.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
HHH
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 07:29AM
A late pander to conservatives, methinks. An absurd one at that.

____________________________________________
What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 08:24AM
Well there's always good ol' rubbers.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 09:36AM
The pro choice movement is being handed a gift here by Bush and should be smart enough to realize it.

Yes, by all means, let's begin to refer to the taking of birth control pills as ABORTION. Let's call the morning-after-pill ABORTION, also.

Also, the wearing of prophylactics -- that too should be called ABORTION.

Any act designed to prevent conception, short of abstinence, should be referred to in the future as ABORTION.

If everything that prevents conception is called abortion, then virtually everyone in the country, including the most devout pro-lifers, will have committed or will commit abortion in one form or another in the future. This will make the pro-life movement even more obviously hypocritical than it already is.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 10:36AM
Also, the wearing of prophylactics -- that too should be called ABORTION.

You don't understand their argument. They're only opposed to birth control methods that abort a fertilized egg.

Hence my comment about rubbers.

I don't agree with them, but I understand their argument.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2008 10:39AM by PowerToThePeople.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 10:49AM
I think maybe it is more that you don't understand my comment. The pro choice movement should call Bush's bluff on this and RAISE HIM. If Bush wants to call certain birth control measures abortion, then why not call all birth control measures abortion? Let's go with the Catholic position that says it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception [and that means ANY form of contraception] to prevent new human beings from coming into existence and see how many Americans go along.

If these hypocrites want to prevent new human beings from being brought into the world then let them stop screwing, period! If they can do that -- and, Tony, I'm talking to you and your ilk -- maybe I'll take their position more seriously.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2008 10:50AM by Henry M. Paulson.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 10:54AM
then why not call all birth control measures abortion?

Because calling the use of condoms "abortion" has no logical basis. The Roman Catholic argument against the use of condoms is built on a different basis than their stance against abortion.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 03:59PM
You're still not understanding the argument.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 05:28PM
I understand it - I just think it's stupid.
HHH
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 15, 2008 07:52PM
"The rule, which does not require congressional approval" - from the article


Congress may well want to fix this (when they get back from recess).

____________________________________________
What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 10:48AM
I go back and forth on the abortion issue. The ethics and consequences of which are almost totally dismissed by the not so liberal feminists. I personally hate abortion and when I look at my children and their development, it just disturbs me someone could go through with destroying unborn children at any stage. HOWEVER, the more educated side of me empathizes with women and believes the government has no place in a womens medical decisions and the choice should be between here and the physician. I personally hate abortion but I want women to have the right to one and I also want any abortions that take place to be performed by properly trained medical professionals instead of the alternative "back-alley" by less than competent people.

As a person who chose to study a science degree...I remember ethics being a mandatory class for all science majors. I dont mean to waive my opinion around but seems to me that many cultural liberals want to dismiss the ethics and consequences of abortion completely. I am sure medical students also take even more ethics and it is perhaps emphasized even more today after the atrocities of the holocaust and Tuskeege.

Cultural liberals also want to dismiss anyone who opposes abortion as illiterate, uneducated, bible-thumper hicks. That is not true and many physicians who are viscerally opposed to abortion would take offense to that notion. The bible-thumpers out there may not have a rational basis to oppose abortion but the resistance they provide is appreciated by myself atleast to keep the cultural liberals from totally labeling abortion as acceptable birth-control. As I said before, the womens right to choose is important and should be protected but the ethics and consequences behind it should also be explained to her under compulsory circumstances and minors should definately be required as with any medical procedure to notify the parents or guardians before the procedure can take place and a perhaps a waiver granted.

In cases of rape and incest I completely believe in the neccessity of abortion, however for cultural liberals it is just another later form of birth control that is just as acceptable as condoms and pills which just excuse the consequences of sexual promiscuity completely. I dont think anyone should be immune to those consequences...even men. The natural fact women bear the responsibility of bringing children into this world means as women(not girls) they must especially consider the consequences before they drop their panties. I cant stand on to much of a pedastool...because I was a man whore in high school and college but I jsut skated by without the consequences. I had the "drip" once and there were a few other scary moments but if I had differently luck I wouldn't be whining about the consequences for my behavior. Unplanned pregnancies are a reasonable expectation of sex...even with protection as many women on the pill will testify to, an abortion is not a reasonable solution. I would appreciate any woman who wants an abortion to be introduced to infertile couples whom could offer the women a 2nd chance on life and in the process be fulfilling the dreams of a couple for a family that could produce a Nobel or another good citizen.

I slept with a slutty bitch in college whom I discussed this with...she ad no problem with abortion, in fact she has at that time counted 6 abortions to her name and has probably had 6 more since. She started young and never cared the least about having an abortion. She was the biggest slut and I didn't care because she had a pulse...maybe I caught the "drip" from here, I'll never know but women like this definately need to be counseled before they are permitted to make a decision to get an abortion. I know this may be bringing in an extreme example that doesn't represent the mode for women that seek abortions but we are dealing with a life and death here and perhaps this is one area where the law must be crafted to meet the lowest common denominator.

Point of this wasn't to rant but to just try and get some of the cultural liberals to try and see where moderates on abortion stand. I again, unequivovally support a woman's right to choose and oppose any effort to restrict the choice. I do however think it is reasonably fair to expect that women should be subject to compulsory counseling about the decisions and the ethics behinds it. So dont throw me in with all the bible-thumpers that want abortion outlawed on some theological grounds.
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 10:57AM
I also think the Catholics go along with the "Rythm Method" I mean whatever that truly is. Most women couldn't truly know when they are ovulating and menstrual cycles vary by as much as two weeks. The Catholics aren't totally against birth-control...just the Catholic church.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 04:46PM
Dan
I think you'd find that most 'pro-choice' advocates also hate abortions. I don't think you would find very many women who dismiss the ethics question as easily or as quickly as you suggest. I would even go so far as to say that the vast majority of women who are facing an unwanted pregnancy will consider an abortion only as the very last resort - when they see no other viable alternative.

That's why contraception - stopping a pregnancy before it can begin; preventing conception before it can even take place - that's why it makes so much sense. By taking away a woman's one avenue of prevention, Bush and his Republican enablers are encouraging - not discouraging - more abortions.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 06:11PM
What jazzman said, but honestly this is what I think. Everyone is going to die anyway so all our lives is merely an illusion. What difference does it make if someone doesn't start life since in 100 years it'll be as if we never existed anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
HHH
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 06:24PM
G - Could I buy your organs and sell them on the open market while they're still useful since you won't be needing them eventually?

____________________________________________
What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 06:38PM
Is that not the philosophy of organ donors?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
HHH
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 06:57PM
No. I just could use some money.

____________________________________________
What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 07:04PM
Why if you're not going to be here in 100 years?

Come on, if you really want to be a brutal realistic fatalist you've got be consistent.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
HHH
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 07:39PM
True. Keep your worthless organs then.

____________________________________________
What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 07:51PM
Well, the only reason my mom's alive is that my Grandma was too afraid of the dirty place she went to get an abortion to let those people touch her, and my mom was a good dodger cuz the pencil she stuck in there didn't kill her..... My grandpa finally found out she was pregnant and told her he would take care of the baby and do everything for her if she would just give birth to it. Fast forward; if this had taken place today and there had been some lovely little clinic and coddling, forgiving society, none of my family would exist. A lot more people have abortions out of convenience than will have the courage to say so, so don't over-estimate the ethics of the people who have abortions. (Yesterday was my mom's birthday, and I asked her to tell me her "birthday story" since she tells me mine every year. She said her mom never told her; this was the only part of the pregnancy they ever discussed.) And anyway, she is lucky to have my mom now; my family is all she has.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 18, 2008 11:30PM
www.birthcontrolwatch.com

There is no scientific evidence that hormonal birth control methods prevent a fertilized egg from being implanted in the uterus. All of the evidence points to birth control methods preventing fertilization. Fertilized eggs have implanted in much more hostile environments. A woman on the pill can become pregnant and continue taking the pill for one to two months before realizing she is pregnant, with no ill effect to the child. Why do people choose to ignore the facts???
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 12:11AM
666 & co, you can assert your self righteous nose snubbing at the unborn all you'de like. The fact remains that with very few exceptions abortion is the needless taking of an individual human life.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 03:09AM


-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 03:38AM
Shai, if your mom had been hit by a car (much more likely than any other accident) you wouldn't be here either.

Your argument holds no weight.

Just because you are here is no justification to make abortion illegal.

There are lots of people who society would have been better off without and wouldnt be here perhaps if it weren't for the fact that abortion was illegal and performed in back allys for so long.

Child molestors, serial killers, mass murderers, politicians and others.

As with all humanity you get the good and the bad regardless of a woman's personal choice.

There are over 6 BILLION people on the planet andthe argument of "well, if abortion was accessable and safe when my mom was pregnant with me I wouldn't even be here" is a bit weak. Perhaps your mom would have had a much more full and enjoyable life had she not been convinced to have an unwanted child (I'm sure that this wasn't the case with you but it is for a large number of mothers who don't want their children), perhaps she would have had a nice carreer, more money, and a healthier life.

I think that abortion is a social service that should be used much more frequently. There are too many times tat an unwanted pregnancy ruins a woman's life for good.

It's also a matter of religion skewing the realities of abortion. "God" doesn't want you to know about contraception, evolution and other scary things so the church disowns people who promote real education. This results in young women who don't even know how to use condoms, let alone have a grasp, emotionally and rationally, on what is gong on when they get pregnant.

A pregnancy is not a "miracle"... it's something that happens across the spectrum of life. It's not special and we ar not special.

People need to get off the god horse and get real about abortion. Our society needs easily accessable, safe and comfortable abortion procedures. Without that we are going to go back to trying to abort pregnancy with coat hangers and pencils.

I've got friends who's lives would have been totally ruined if they had not had abortions. One wouldn't be in medical school to be a brain surgeon, one wouldn't be the art director of a famous magazine in NYC, onewouldn't be a PhD of anthropology and my own mother wouldn't have been able to support my brothe and I if she had had the two children that she aborted. She later had three more kids when she was ready and she and my step-dad could afford to have them.

Abortions are good. They serve a necessay purpose without wich society, and certain individuals in particulaar, suffer unduely.

Instead of trying to make abortion illegal or calling it "murder", a much more rational and constructive approach would be to educate kids about abortion and focus on helping them avoid unwanted pregnancy... instead of just claiming that it's murder and god hates you if you even think about an abortion.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 04:57AM
It may be a weak argument for society in general, but for me personally, its reason enough. And you're telling me that it's impossible to lead a happy, successful life if you're "punished" with children? You may have to wait a while before you can do what you WANT to do (go to med school or have a high-powered career), you may have to endure a little bit harder times financially, and all that bad stuff, but when it comes to a choice between these things and the life of a child, it just seems selfish to kill the kid. But this is America; what do we care about being selfish? And the poor kids, saddled with parents who don't even want them; I'm sure next you will tell me how ridiculous that is. And it is. I think after having two abortions a person should seriously consider some form of surgical sterilization. I agree with you about the education though; I have a 17 year old brother, and my sister and I have drilled into his head that he needs to watch out for girls who are a little too quick to drop their panties. As a matter of fact, I doubt there are very many aspects of sex ed we haven't discussed with him. Sure, he used to get all embarrassed; we are his sisters after all; but I agree with you that there are things kids NEED to know that adults don't always want to discuss with them. We also made sure to drill into his head that it only takes one rogue sperm to have an unwanted kid, and there aren't always outward signs of STDs.... All that. Hopefully, he won't be dumb enough to spite us smiling smiley You don't think it's kind-of a miracle to bring a life into the world? If you have ever had the pleasure of having a child, and watched (or were at least present for) that baby being brought into the world, and you could hold that baby and look into it's eyes and then come back here and tell me you didn't feel like that was some kind of miracle, THEN I would believe you. It is a miracle when you feel that love wash over you and look into those little eyes.... Only a truly selfish person say that their life was completely ruined by that.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 05:57AM
Shaina if you're interested you should check out the philosophy of taoism.

[en.wikipedia.org]

I wouldn't exist if it wasn't for abortion. My mothers first pregnancy was aborted.

Another thing is the butterfly effect.

[en.wikipedia.org]

If say a butterfly flapped its wings a few thousand years ago you or I may not exist at all. That doesn't mean we need to eliminate all butterflies.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 06:12AM
Cascade, I was able to vehemently agree with your position once when I was a man whore. Tell me though, if you(perhaps you have) were an expecting father...would you really stick to your dogmatic principles or selfishly want your children to have a chance at life. I mean, I see your position totally and agree on the earth being over-populated but the only option is to start compulsory sterilization because education just doesn't work and there is no SAFE SEX, ONLY SAFER SEX. So even at best education can reduce the chances of "unwanted pregnancy" for those that are so intellectually superior to totally ignore the hormonal urge. Girls regardless of their background and religion start wanting it almost or as soon as they bleed and guys abot the same. The truth is women are probably the stronger sex in a pure utility of reproduction and clone is entirely possible with humans but an egg cell is still neccessary. Men in terms of reproduction are actually REDUNDANT, but we still serve as purpose to the extent they want love from men so we men trade love for sex atleast until we catch up in maturity. Women choose to take the risk of pregnancy when they decide to drop their panties and therefore it is tantamount to having an accident with a firearm. You can argue about the consequence all you want but this is the 1st piece of education...pregnancy comes from sex and when you do it and both of you aren't liek 50...it is reasonable to expect the consequence regardless of birth control. Not all anti-abortion arguments are based on the "god horse" and there is some real ethics and philosophy behind the argument.
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 06:23AM
Shai, I'm not talking about you personally, I appreciate your stance on the subject and would not try to infringe upon your personal choice. But we're talking about federal legeslation and that caliber of discussion. Things thatwill effect all of us across the board and take us back, potentially, to the days of underground abortion facilities and bombings.

The idea of calling things like RU486 an abortion, to me, is stupid.

An abortion, in common parlance, is a proceedure, usually performed within or before the second trimester, designed to surgically terminate a pregnancy.

The morning after pill (in my opinion one of the neatest little drugs to come out since birth control pills) simply prevents pregnancy from happening.

It matter not that the egg is fertalized. That happens all the time and it is natural for an egg not to "take".

None of this is a miracle. It's life.

I helped raise my brother and sisters, the youngest one and I are 21 years apart, and babies are really cool... but they're no more special than any other life form.

We are a super-predator there simply isn't supposed to be so many of us. Our impact is too great and it takes the entire ecosystem of the earth to support us... and it's failing.

If these profolactic drugs that prevent pregnancy from happening were more widely available to the world, and cheep, it THAT would be a miracle.
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 06:25AM
Dan there will always be ethics in the argument, but I think we can agree that since the argument and the decisions will always go on we can leave this where the separation of church and state should be and move on to real arguments.

Until then I am reminded of the monty python every sperm is a sacred sperm song even the catholic church holds the view that life enters the body at 42 days well after most abortions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Eisenhower
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 07:07AM
Ok, I dont hold the Catholic church as the authority but if we had to put a timeline for what is acceptable...I am willing to compromise. The fact is many, many, many women are too stupid to know they are even pregnant within 42 days. Unless they are intentionally attempting to become pregnant...most women dont even bother with a test until about 6-8 weeks in that case we would be destroying life. I think even GB, you as a vegetarian can agree that needless destruction of life no matter how small and insignificant is a serious enough matter to debate the right and wrong decision. I am not some St. Francis agape vegan...but in reality even rat and spiders dont deserve to be destroyed. We do because it is justified in the logic that humans are more valuable and they endanger human life(well spider probably dont but most people will squash them with their shoe or call an exterminator if they find them). So if an embryo is a life then doesn't it deserve the same right to survival as say a rat and in that case does a decision to be sexual active that has a reasonable chance to result in pregnancy even if it was later unexpected justify killing said life. Depending on your answer, I would be curious to why you are a vegan...just dont like meat.
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 12:10PM
Dan, by your logic it would be even more important to have easily accessable and common abortion proceedures and a saturation of "morning after" candies to seel to teenagers.

A single human destroys more life than any other single species on the planet. Even elephants who graze constantly their entire lives don't do as much damage as a single human.

If I were to think about the totality of life from the point of view that you proposed then I could easily justify the extermination of at least half the global human population.

A human child takes so much time and energy to care for and raise that we should not think about every instance of conception as some prescious miracle that has to be promoted and protected. There's a reason for the saying "It takes a village to raise a child". Because it does.

There are simply too many of us and here in the US, where we have the highest per capita consumption rate on the planet, every new person we add to the population is the equivilent of three or more in just about any other country save a few.

If the long-term, sustainable survival of the human race matters at all then questions of "morality" should not be about religion, how cute babies may or may not be, whether or not thereis some kind of ethical issue for some people based on pure emotional responses but should instead be based upon the individual's ability to comfortably support a child, society's ability to support a new individual and the planet's ability to support the combined biomass of the human species.

We are not special. We have only been here for a very short period of time and life doesn't give a damn if we go extinct or not. It is better to have easy access to controceptives, "morning after" drugs and abortion proceedures than to have to face the long-term consequences of massive over-population.

It's a matter of whether or not you can deal with a few million dead now or want to face a few billion dead later.
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 04:51PM
I dont disagree with birth control and or right to abortion. I surely want any abortion to be performed under medically safe conditions. I know the pragmatics of the over population reducing it make sense but there is more to people that plain numbers.

The future holds possibilities for us we couldn't even imagine and the same holds true for any aborted pregnancy. I merely want a broader point of view explained with abortion and birth control...we both want better education and truly that is the solution to ignorance. The decision beyond that rests with the conscience of the woman. I am not a woman and THEREFORE I FEEL MEN SHOULD STAY OUT OF THE DECISION WHERE THE RUBBER HITS THE ROAD SO TO SPEAK. NEITHER YOU, I OR ANY OTHER MAN WILL NEED TO MAKE THAT DECISION SO IT SHOULD BE PURELY UP TO THE WOMAN. I would infact believe in mandatory ethics of over-population and the amount of resources it take to support one persons lifestyle to be taught along side the biology and facts of birth control, contraceptives, abortion etc etc.

The only thing we can control is our immediate sphere of influence and that is about as far as your arms will reach. I dont want the government making medical decisions on my behalf, so why would I want that imposed on women? I atleast want women to look at abortion as more than a mere visit to the dentist to get a cavity filled when you dont brush and floss. The FACT...we take life all the time but not neccessarily human life and it is not certain where we define the start of "human" life...homosapiens are like any other animal which starts life via fertilization and it is reasonable to say it starts at conception, it is also reasonable to say that a glob of cells has no apparent traits that are distinct to humans and possibly are no more significant than killing bacteria when you wash your hands. So again....Fact, abortion is killing and if the person is fine with possibly killing human life, or a glob of cells or anywhere in between...I am fine with whatever decision they make.

Yes, many fertilized eggs usually end up being flushed away during the menstrual cycle, that is distinctly different than intentionally making a decision to terminate something vs. nature taking it's course. I just want women to be cognizant of the ethics and consequences of either decision they make.
Anonymous User
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 04:58PM
Dan, there are many things that a woman can do to increase the chances of that fertalized egg not taking.

If the kind of legeslation in question is passed (or I guess in this case, dictated) it could lead to criminalizing women for drinking a lot of cranberry juice the morning after becaus it drastically increass the chances of that egg not taking.

Morning after treatments have been around since at least the times of the Egyptian empire.

I gotta agree with most of what you say but the more and more I think about it, maybe drive-through abortions aren't that bad of an idea.
HHH
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 07:00PM
What? You don't get out of your car? How about the people behind you beeping their horns while the surgeon operates?

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What kind of genius loses a billion dollars in a year?
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 07:41PM
I will agree that we don't need the gov't making medical decisions for anyone. The less the gov't gets to decide, the better. It just isn't fair to the babies, and the way they are "terminated" is disgusting and degrading, then they are thrown in the trash like they never mattered to anybody. What if some homeless, crack-addicted bum was cut up into small pieces and thrown into the trash? Would you argue that society couldn't support him, he was nothing but a drain, and nobody wanted him anyway, so it doesn't matter? Or would you consider it a terrible tragedy, something that the person who killed him "shouldn't" have done?
Re: Bush: Contraception should be legally deemed 'abortion'
August 19, 2008 08:04PM
Shaina just by having a child the child will die.

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"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

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