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This isn't complicated. 2020 is a referendum on Trump.

The job of the Biden campaign is simple, and Trump is helping.
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Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 02:56AM
Quote
Ponderer
"It is not a death sentence if we don't get a Bernie-style M4A" -Curt

For some, yes it will be....t.

For some, Bernie's M4A plan would be a death sentence. Maybe you don't have a developed sense of empathy like me, so you don't care. As general rule patients will wait longer in countries where the healthcare is completely provided by the government. It doesn't matter if the price is right if you die in a waiting room. That's why I favor a private/public mix system. The advantages of low costs and shorter wait times. What is wrong with that?




Source: Debunking Republican Healthcare Myths: Wait Times & Rationing
[askepticalhuman.com]




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 05:06AM
curt, not to pile on.....but you case is even stronger

those countries are in no way similar to america's so-called 'melting pot'. a small homogeneous population with common ethics and morality can pull it off.

america pulling it off? lol

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2019 05:06AM by txcup.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 05:53AM
I do business with physicians and large physician and hospital groups. There’s only a tiny fraction of physicians in Houston/Beaumont who want government run healthcare. But to be fair, nobody likes the additional administration either. What the majority of physicians do want is cash payments. They just realize it’s not a working solution.

What physicians really want but won’t tell you is a continuation of a fee for service model so they can milk the @#$%& out of the system without oversight or accountability.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 06:38AM
Quote
tuk22
I do business with physicians and large physician and hospital groups. There’s only a tiny fraction of physicians in Houston/Beaumont who want government run healthcare. But to be fair, nobody likes the additional administration either. What the majority of physicians do want is cash payments. They just realize it’s not a working solution.

What physicians really want but won’t tell you is a continuation of a fee for service model so they can milk the @#$%& out of the system without oversight or accountability.

you are from my hood? who pays for the illegals' health care?

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Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 08:30AM
You left some charts out, Curt.





Quote

The takeaway conclusion here is inescapable: The people in countries with either public or mixed systems are significantly more satisfied with their healthcare than we are here in the United States. If wait times and rationing were truly the grueling problems that conservatives make them out be, why would we see satisfaction rates like this? Is the conservative prepared to argue that they know better about the overall quality of these systems than the people who are living within these systems? This is the single most informative question to ask about the overall desirability of a country's healthcare system, and it makes undeniable that conservatives are simply on the wrong side of this argument.

***



Quote

We also have a form of rationing unique to the United States: It's called: "I can't afford health care, so I'm s'hit out of luck." CNBC reports that 12% of American adults lack health insurance altogether, and a 2009 study by Andrew Wilper et al found that 45,000 Americans die each year due to lack of health insurance.

The Commonwealth Fund reports that 19% of Americans—just in the past 12 months—skipped a medical test, treatment, or follow-up recommended by a doctor specifically because of the cost. Compare this to the average of 4% who responded this way in public systems and the 8% who responded this way in mixed systems.

***



Quote

They also report that, in the past 12 months, 18% of Americans either didn't collect prescription medication or skipped doses purely because of the cost. And that is no surprise, because prescription drugs in this country are extremely expensive; just ask Rush Limbaugh! Under both public and mixed systems, only 5% answered this question in the affirmative.

When people in the United States are doing things like skipping doses or cutting their pills in half, how's that for literal rationing? And who knows what is the additional number of people that die from foregoing treatment or medication in America because of the cost?

Tens of thousands of people die every single year in the United States because of these financial barriers to our healthcare system. This is a vastly, incomparably-more serious, systemic healthcare failure than fat people and smokers having to wait a bit for non-essential surgery if they can't do themselves the favor of losing weight or quitting smoking. So spare me your crocodile tears for these people.

***

Quote

There's also a very important point that needs to be made and understood here—so take your little pecker out of your hand and pay attention: The financial barriers to our healthcare system almost certainly reduce the wait times in our country.

Think about it: 12% of US adults lack health insurance and 19% regularly skip recommended treatments or visits for financial reasons. This doesn't even factor in the many people who, just as a general rule to save money, avoid doctor visits for everything except the most serious or urgent of conditions.

People who otherwise would be in the healthcare system stay out of it purely because of its exorbitant cost in the United States—and this means that wait times are going to be shorter because there's a smaller percentage of people trying to access the country's healthcare system at any given time. So the very wait times that conservatives point to as proof of the exceptional quality of our healthcare system are actually partly the product of its extreme dysfunction.

***

Quote

Well, as much as I'm sure you're all enjoying yourself, it is about that time that we wrap up and ask ourselves: What are some of the key conclusions we can reach on this subject?

Public systems have the longest wait times in comparison to private and mixed systems—whose wait times are about the same, on average. Worth noting is the obvious point that there are plenty of countries that fall into these categories that weren't included in my analysis, and these very well could have tipped the balance in one or another direction.

Another key point is that rationing is an inevitable part of healthcare—and the United States has uniquely high rates of financial rationing. Furthermore, low wait times in the United States are partially the result of high cost, and wait times are only one component of a country's healthcare quality. General satisfaction data shows that people are more satisfied with public or mixed systems than they are with the heavily private system that we have in the United States—and this applies both between countries and within the United States.

Rather than taking a big picture, honest approach to the subject, the right-wing, agenda-driven argument in this area often revolves around cherrypicking the absolute worst data they can find to paint a much darker picture of these healthcare systems than actually exists in reality. Hi, Curt!

***

This is a chart I added: Life Expectancy

Australia mixed 82.8
Canada public 82.2
France mixed 82.4
Germany mixed 81.0
Netherlands mixed 81.9
New Zealand mixed 81.6
Norway public 81.8
Sweden public 82.4
Switzerland private 83.4
U.K. public 81.2
U.S. private 77.8

[askepticalhuman.com] (Great find, Curt!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2019 08:36AM by Donna.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 09:17AM
Donna,
What is your chart measuring?

You seem to think that I am advocating for absolutely no change to the current US system. I am not. I favor the various private/public mixed systems (aka Medicare-for-all-who-want-it) or as my second choice an all private systems like Switzerland where health insurance is mandatory, but it's supplied free of charge to people who can't afford it.

By most measures, a mixed system gets the highest marks or gets near to the highest marks when compared to public and private systems. Importantly people with mixed systems are the most satisfied. No, I don't agree with Bernie, E. Warren, Indy, Ponderer and maybe you that M4A is the ONLY way to go, case closed. Bernie's and Elizabeth plans simply are unrealistic. Certainly they are not politically feasible. Worst of all, M4A is not popular--especially among people who realize M4A eliminates all private insurance except for elective cosmetic surgery.

Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said that a "state may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country." We can look beyond our borders too. Good public policy is to see what is working in a state or another country and use that as a model.

Based on some of the responses that I get here, you'd think I was advocating euthanasia for people who can't afford health care.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 09:26PM
confused smiley It's measuring what I labeled it to be measuring - life expectancy.

I encourage everyone to study the charts and commentary I posted in response to the cherry-picked charts Curt posted, which btw are from the same source Curt used.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 09:48PM
Quote
Donna
confused smiley It's measuring what I labeled it to be measuring - life expectancy.

I should have phrased that better. What is the point of your measurements? Did you miss that the Swiss with their private health care system have the greatest longevity? You have been relentlessly arguing that Bernie Sanders approach (which has no precedence in the real world) is the only way to go. Yet private and mixed systems have better or comparable outcomes as measured by life expectancy..




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:25PM
Actually Switzerland's system is mixed and universal. [en.wikipedia.org]

And all of those other countries have significantly higher average life expectancies than the US regardless of whether their systems are private, public, or mixed. That's probably due to a combination of factors including diet, and the ability to afford Rx's, copayments, etc., or health care coverage itself.

Only 19.5% of Americans think our health care system works well, which is considerably lower than in any other country regardless of whether their systems are private, public, or mixed. There seems to be no correlation between how people rate their health care systems and whether their systems are private, public, or mixed, or how long wait times are.

So what accounts for that difference? I'm guessing that it has to do with the fact that the US system is the only system among those countries 1) that isn't universal, 2) that isn't affordable for many Americans even if they have coverage, and 3) where hundreds of thousands of people annually declare bankruptcy that is at least in part the result of unpaid medical bills.

Actually I'm open to any system that would achieve the same results seen in those other countries. For me, it doesn't have to be a public system. I'm just not seeing any proposals other than Bernie's or Liz's that would achieve that.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:49PM
Quote
Donna
Actually Switzerland's system is mixed and universal. [en.wikipedia.org].

Actually Switzerland's system is NOT mixed and IS universal. [en.wikipedia.org]. Private insurance is compulsory although they make allowances for those who can't afford it. Incidentally their system is administered at the canton level.

Sanders and Warren aren't the only Democrats who want to achieve universal healthcare. They are the primary proponents of effectively eliminating private insurance. Sanders makes an exception for private elective cosmetic insurance. They also contend that all other proposals are cruel, heartless and ill-informed.

I don't know why you can't see other systems besides Bernie or Liz's that achieve what you and I would like to see. Especially, considering that no country on earth is doing what either of those two propose. Hint: show my another country that provides free public dental, mental and vision care.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:51PM
"The Swiss healthcare system is a combination of public, subsidised private and totally private systems." [en.wikipedia.org]
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:53PM
Quote
Curt
I don't know why you can't see other systems besides Bernie or Liz's that achieve what you and I would like to see.

I already answered that 2 posts back, last paragraph.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 11:19PM
The Swiis system is cheaper for individuals, Curt. In effect, it is like a somewhat more expensive universal pay system since it is all insured and all society participates. Effectively, it is a single payer system but not though the tax system. That also adds to the bureaucratic cost.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 11:39PM
Quote
Swiss Health Care Thrives Without Public Option
Swiss private insurers are required to offer coverage to all citizens, regardless of age or medical history. And those people, in turn, are obligated to buy health insurance.

That is why many academics who have studied the Swiss health care system have pointed to this Alpine nation of about 7.5 million as a model that delivers much of what Washington is aiming to accomplish — without the contentious option of a government-run health insurance plan. [www.nytimes.com]




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 10, 2019 06:23PM
Quote
Curt Anderson
Quote
Swiss Health Care Thrives Without Public Option
Swiss private insurers are required to offer coverage to all citizens, regardless of age or medical history. And those people, in turn, are obligated to buy health insurance.

That is why many academics who have studied the Swiss health care system have pointed to this Alpine nation of about 7.5 million as a model that delivers much of what Washington is aiming to accomplish — without the contentious option of a government-run health insurance plan. [www.nytimes.com]

The Swiss system is one that, if applied to the USA would result in a few hundred billion dollars greater cost than the Universal public systems. It is far more expensive and less only than the current US system. What is it about the US with its vaunted capitalism that brings greater efficiency and cheaper products, or so American tycoons would have you believe. That extra money would all go into the pockets of high income earners and billionaires.
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