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My doctor wants M4A

Posted by Indy! 
My doctor wants M4A
November 06, 2019 09:17PM
Just saw my doctor today and while we were chatting I asked him what he thought about M4A - for it, against it, what? BTW - he doesn't know my politics - in 20-25 years we might have discussed that once maybe and I don't let on my political leanings to people who's job it is to poke me, prod me, feed me or pay me. That's another Indy Rule we can talk about another time. Anywho - he's for it! Yes! He said straight up he wanted it because he was sick of dealing with insurance companies and having them steal from the system (that's how he put it too - they're STEALING from the system). He said we should be like all the other countries and either have straight Bernie-style M4A (although he didn't mention Bernie by name) or he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too). If you need a profile on the guy - he's in his 70s, been a doctor 50 years and I'm pretty sure he's a wingnut on most other issues (from our one political conversation). After we discussed it he added the qualifier - not all doctors are for it though... So I said "you mean the doctors who are in it for the money... Some doctors get into medicine to help people - some get in it for money" He nodded...

Which led to the story of why HE became a doctor. His dad needed a lung transplant - this was when the operation was very rare - his father was one of the first people to get one. He was poor and his mother didn't have the money for the operation. She's on the phone with the doctor and he's giving her all the details - what needs to be done, how much it will cost, etc... She tells him they can't afford the operation and the doctor says " Don't worry - go to the synagogue and pray for your husband and for the operation to go smoothly and I will consider that payment in full" (!!!! eye popping smiley !!!!) Very generous offer! The doctor wanted to help - and he also wanted to have the lung transplant operation on his resumé - it was a rare thing and gave him higher status in the medical world. Anyway - she gets off the phone and she's so happy she's crying and my doctor (being her oldest son) says "Mom what's wrong? What happened?" She tells him what the doctor said and then she points to him and each of his brothers and says "All of you are going to be doctors so you can help people the way the doctor is going to help your father". And they did - even though they were poor they excelled in school and got scholarships to help them thru college. All of them became doctors except one who became a rabbi. His father had the operation and lived another 30 years - he outlived his mother.

Is that a great story or what? smiling smiley
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 06, 2019 09:23PM
Great story!

I am sure he is not the lone doctor who is in favor of M4A. Not by a long shot.

Nurses all seem to be pretty much unanimously in favor of it.

.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 06, 2019 10:08PM
Thanks for sharing that, Indy. Great story.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 06, 2019 10:34PM
Your welcome!

I've known him forever - basically since I moved back down here from Jacksonville - and even though we always have a little friendly catch-up conversation and whatever else might be happening whenever we get together (sports talk, whatever), he never told me that story before. He got a little teary eyed at the end too. smiling smiley It really explains why he's such a great doctor - always looking to help, reasonably priced and I can trust him (literally) with my life.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 06, 2019 11:22PM
I know quite a few doctors. It's a fairly common story that they went into medicine because a family member was afflicted with a disease or condition that later became their specialty.

As for your doctor, Indy, as previously noted, no country on earth has "straight Bernie-style M4A". That your doc said he'd be happy with plan in which patients pay 30%, that doesn't sound like Bernie's plan at all. If people were required to pay 30% of their medical bill, a significant number of people would want private insurance to cover that 30% which could be an enormous bill if hospitalization is involved.

Also the fact that your doctor is in his seventies matters. If M4A as you and Bernie imagine it is complete bust, he doesn't have to worry. He's past retirement age anyway.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 06, 2019 11:53PM
go to the synagogue.....the tribe helping their own is nothing new. nor is their love for pushing socialism/communism in their host countries

==========================================================================
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 12:17AM
Quote
Curt Anderson
As for your doctor, Indy, as previously noted, no country on earth has "straight Bernie-style M4A".

So? We're supposed to be this "great" country yet we can't even get what these other places have. You D purists always aim as low as possible and are fine getting nothing.

Quote
Curt
That your doc said he'd be happy with plan in which patients pay 30%, that doesn't sound like Bernie's plan at all. If people were required to pay 30% of their medical bill, a significant number of people would want private insurance to cover that 30% which could be an enormous bill if hospitalization is involved.

Read it again and then we'll talk. eye rolling smiley


Quote
Curt
Also the fact that your doctor is in his seventies matters. If M4A as you and Bernie imagine it is complete bust, he doesn't have to worry. He's past retirement age anyway.


Same goes for you. So I guess you're on board now - glad to hear it!
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 12:31AM
Quote
Indy!
he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too).

Finally, you are coming around to accepting a practical, feasible health care plan suggestions. As Victor Laszlo said, "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win."
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 12:35AM
.



"...and our side will die."


.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 12:49AM
Quote
Ponderer
"...and our side will die."

You are a tad over-dramatic. It is not a death sentence if we don't get a Bernie-style M4A, death-to-private-insurance-companies health care plan. You should be more like that young lady who was protesting proposed Republican cuts to the ACA. She is in Biden's camp, in that she doesn't want Obamacare cut and probably would support strengthening it and broadening its reach.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 01:36AM
Quote

) or he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too).

This is why Indy is the worst fuking poster... he’s constantly contradicting himself...
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 01:53AM
Quote
Curt Anderson
Quote
Indy!
he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too).

Finally, you are coming around to accepting a practical, feasible health care plan suggestions. As Victor Laszlo said, "Welcome back to the fight. This time I know our side will win."



Strike two. smiling smiley
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 01:54AM
Quote
tuk22
Quote

) or he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too).

This is why Indy is the worst fuking poster... he’s constantly contradicting himself...


Strike one.

Got a lot of people with reading comprehension problems on the board today. smiling smiley
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 01:54AM
"It is not a death sentence if we don't get a Bernie-style M4A" -Curt

For some, yes it will be. As it is now. Even Obamacare only lowered the number considerably. Tens of thousands still die annually for lack of access to medical attention because nothing covers them. For all manner of reasons inherent in the system. They have fallen through... The Doughnut Hole of the Sacrificially Denied. Valiant souls who sacrificed their lives in the service of perpetuating increased Profits for the health insurance industry. They died. So that CEOs could yacht.

.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 01:57AM
Got Tuk's death panel to deal with when you buy private insurance.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 02:56AM
Quote
Ponderer
"It is not a death sentence if we don't get a Bernie-style M4A" -Curt

For some, yes it will be....t.

For some, Bernie's M4A plan would be a death sentence. Maybe you don't have a developed sense of empathy like me, so you don't care. As general rule patients will wait longer in countries where the healthcare is completely provided by the government. It doesn't matter if the price is right if you die in a waiting room. That's why I favor a private/public mix system. The advantages of low costs and shorter wait times. What is wrong with that?




Source: Debunking Republican Healthcare Myths: Wait Times & Rationing
[askepticalhuman.com]
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 05:06AM
curt, not to pile on.....but you case is even stronger

those countries are in no way similar to america's so-called 'melting pot'. a small homogeneous population with common ethics and morality can pull it off.

america pulling it off? lol

==========================================================================



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2019 05:06AM by txcup.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 05:53AM
I do business with physicians and large physician and hospital groups. There’s only a tiny fraction of physicians in Houston/Beaumont who want government run healthcare. But to be fair, nobody likes the additional administration either. What the majority of physicians do want is cash payments. They just realize it’s not a working solution.

What physicians really want but won’t tell you is a continuation of a fee for service model so they can milk the @#$%& out of the system without oversight or accountability.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 06:38AM
Quote
tuk22
I do business with physicians and large physician and hospital groups. There’s only a tiny fraction of physicians in Houston/Beaumont who want government run healthcare. But to be fair, nobody likes the additional administration either. What the majority of physicians do want is cash payments. They just realize it’s not a working solution.

What physicians really want but won’t tell you is a continuation of a fee for service model so they can milk the @#$%& out of the system without oversight or accountability.

you are from my hood? who pays for the illegals' health care?

==========================================================================
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 08:30AM
You left some charts out, Curt.





Quote

The takeaway conclusion here is inescapable: The people in countries with either public or mixed systems are significantly more satisfied with their healthcare than we are here in the United States. If wait times and rationing were truly the grueling problems that conservatives make them out be, why would we see satisfaction rates like this? Is the conservative prepared to argue that they know better about the overall quality of these systems than the people who are living within these systems? This is the single most informative question to ask about the overall desirability of a country's healthcare system, and it makes undeniable that conservatives are simply on the wrong side of this argument.

***



Quote

We also have a form of rationing unique to the United States: It's called: "I can't afford health care, so I'm s'hit out of luck." CNBC reports that 12% of American adults lack health insurance altogether, and a 2009 study by Andrew Wilper et al found that 45,000 Americans die each year due to lack of health insurance.

The Commonwealth Fund reports that 19% of Americans—just in the past 12 months—skipped a medical test, treatment, or follow-up recommended by a doctor specifically because of the cost. Compare this to the average of 4% who responded this way in public systems and the 8% who responded this way in mixed systems.

***



Quote

They also report that, in the past 12 months, 18% of Americans either didn't collect prescription medication or skipped doses purely because of the cost. And that is no surprise, because prescription drugs in this country are extremely expensive; just ask Rush Limbaugh! Under both public and mixed systems, only 5% answered this question in the affirmative.

When people in the United States are doing things like skipping doses or cutting their pills in half, how's that for literal rationing? And who knows what is the additional number of people that die from foregoing treatment or medication in America because of the cost?

Tens of thousands of people die every single year in the United States because of these financial barriers to our healthcare system. This is a vastly, incomparably-more serious, systemic healthcare failure than fat people and smokers having to wait a bit for non-essential surgery if they can't do themselves the favor of losing weight or quitting smoking. So spare me your crocodile tears for these people.

***

Quote

There's also a very important point that needs to be made and understood here—so take your little pecker out of your hand and pay attention: The financial barriers to our healthcare system almost certainly reduce the wait times in our country.

Think about it: 12% of US adults lack health insurance and 19% regularly skip recommended treatments or visits for financial reasons. This doesn't even factor in the many people who, just as a general rule to save money, avoid doctor visits for everything except the most serious or urgent of conditions.

People who otherwise would be in the healthcare system stay out of it purely because of its exorbitant cost in the United States—and this means that wait times are going to be shorter because there's a smaller percentage of people trying to access the country's healthcare system at any given time. So the very wait times that conservatives point to as proof of the exceptional quality of our healthcare system are actually partly the product of its extreme dysfunction.

***

Quote

Well, as much as I'm sure you're all enjoying yourself, it is about that time that we wrap up and ask ourselves: What are some of the key conclusions we can reach on this subject?

Public systems have the longest wait times in comparison to private and mixed systems—whose wait times are about the same, on average. Worth noting is the obvious point that there are plenty of countries that fall into these categories that weren't included in my analysis, and these very well could have tipped the balance in one or another direction.

Another key point is that rationing is an inevitable part of healthcare—and the United States has uniquely high rates of financial rationing. Furthermore, low wait times in the United States are partially the result of high cost, and wait times are only one component of a country's healthcare quality. General satisfaction data shows that people are more satisfied with public or mixed systems than they are with the heavily private system that we have in the United States—and this applies both between countries and within the United States.

Rather than taking a big picture, honest approach to the subject, the right-wing, agenda-driven argument in this area often revolves around cherrypicking the absolute worst data they can find to paint a much darker picture of these healthcare systems than actually exists in reality. Hi, Curt!

***

This is a chart I added: Life Expectancy

Australia mixed 82.8
Canada public 82.2
France mixed 82.4
Germany mixed 81.0
Netherlands mixed 81.9
New Zealand mixed 81.6
Norway public 81.8
Sweden public 82.4
Switzerland private 83.4
U.K. public 81.2
U.S. private 77.8

[askepticalhuman.com] (Great find, Curt!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2019 08:36AM by Donna.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 07, 2019 09:17AM
Donna,
What is your chart measuring?

You seem to think that I am advocating for absolutely no change to the current US system. I am not. I favor the various private/public mixed systems (aka Medicare-for-all-who-want-it) or as my second choice an all private systems like Switzerland where health insurance is mandatory, but it's supplied free of charge to people who can't afford it.

By most measures, a mixed system gets the highest marks or gets near to the highest marks when compared to public and private systems. Importantly people with mixed systems are the most satisfied. No, I don't agree with Bernie, E. Warren, Indy, Ponderer and maybe you that M4A is the ONLY way to go, case closed. Bernie's and Elizabeth plans simply are unrealistic. Certainly they are not politically feasible. Worst of all, M4A is not popular--especially among people who realize M4A eliminates all private insurance except for elective cosmetic surgery.

Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said that a "state may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country." We can look beyond our borders too. Good public policy is to see what is working in a state or another country and use that as a model.

Based on some of the responses that I get here, you'd think I was advocating euthanasia for people who can't afford health care.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 09:26PM
confused smiley It's measuring what I labeled it to be measuring - life expectancy.

I encourage everyone to study the charts and commentary I posted in response to the cherry-picked charts Curt posted, which btw are from the same source Curt used.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 09:48PM
Quote
Donna
confused smiley It's measuring what I labeled it to be measuring - life expectancy.

I should have phrased that better. What is the point of your measurements? Did you miss that the Swiss with their private health care system have the greatest longevity? You have been relentlessly arguing that Bernie Sanders approach (which has no precedence in the real world) is the only way to go. Yet private and mixed systems have better or comparable outcomes as measured by life expectancy..
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:25PM
Actually Switzerland's system is mixed and universal. [en.wikipedia.org]

And all of those other countries have significantly higher average life expectancies than the US regardless of whether their systems are private, public, or mixed. That's probably due to a combination of factors including diet, and the ability to afford Rx's, copayments, etc., or health care coverage itself.

Only 19.5% of Americans think our health care system works well, which is considerably lower than in any other country regardless of whether their systems are private, public, or mixed. There seems to be no correlation between how people rate their health care systems and whether their systems are private, public, or mixed, or how long wait times are.

So what accounts for that difference? I'm guessing that it has to do with the fact that the US system is the only system among those countries 1) that isn't universal, 2) that isn't affordable for many Americans even if they have coverage, and 3) where hundreds of thousands of people annually declare bankruptcy that is at least in part the result of unpaid medical bills.

Actually I'm open to any system that would achieve the same results seen in those other countries. For me, it doesn't have to be a public system. I'm just not seeing any proposals other than Bernie's or Liz's that would achieve that.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:49PM
Quote
Donna
Actually Switzerland's system is mixed and universal. [en.wikipedia.org].

Actually Switzerland's system is NOT mixed and IS universal. [en.wikipedia.org]. Private insurance is compulsory although they make allowances for those who can't afford it. Incidentally their system is administered at the canton level.

Sanders and Warren aren't the only Democrats who want to achieve universal healthcare. They are the primary proponents of effectively eliminating private insurance. Sanders makes an exception for private elective cosmetic insurance. They also contend that all other proposals are cruel, heartless and ill-informed.

I don't know why you can't see other systems besides Bernie or Liz's that achieve what you and I would like to see. Especially, considering that no country on earth is doing what either of those two propose. Hint: show my another country that provides free public dental, mental and vision care.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:51PM
"The Swiss healthcare system is a combination of public, subsidised private and totally private systems." [en.wikipedia.org]
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 10:53PM
Quote
Curt
I don't know why you can't see other systems besides Bernie or Liz's that achieve what you and I would like to see.

I already answered that 2 posts back, last paragraph.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 11:19PM
The Swiis system is cheaper for individuals, Curt. In effect, it is like a somewhat more expensive universal pay system since it is all insured and all society participates. Effectively, it is a single payer system but not though the tax system. That also adds to the bureaucratic cost.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 09, 2019 11:39PM
Quote
Swiss Health Care Thrives Without Public Option
Swiss private insurers are required to offer coverage to all citizens, regardless of age or medical history. And those people, in turn, are obligated to buy health insurance.

That is why many academics who have studied the Swiss health care system have pointed to this Alpine nation of about 7.5 million as a model that delivers much of what Washington is aiming to accomplish — without the contentious option of a government-run health insurance plan. [www.nytimes.com]
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 10, 2019 06:23PM
Quote
Curt Anderson
Quote
Swiss Health Care Thrives Without Public Option
Swiss private insurers are required to offer coverage to all citizens, regardless of age or medical history. And those people, in turn, are obligated to buy health insurance.

That is why many academics who have studied the Swiss health care system have pointed to this Alpine nation of about 7.5 million as a model that delivers much of what Washington is aiming to accomplish — without the contentious option of a government-run health insurance plan. [www.nytimes.com]

The Swiss system is one that, if applied to the USA would result in a few hundred billion dollars greater cost than the Universal public systems. It is far more expensive and less only than the current US system. What is it about the US with its vaunted capitalism that brings greater efficiency and cheaper products, or so American tycoons would have you believe. That extra money would all go into the pockets of high income earners and billionaires.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 10, 2019 11:36PM
Curt already has medicare so he’s good with any crappy system the rest of us are forced to use.

Tuk is one the vipers murdering poor Americans with his sh1tty health “insurance” plans, so crappy for him = more profits.

Very simple.

PS: I’m sure everybody already noticed but I’ll say it anyway- Tuk called me a liar and AS ALWAYS when someone calls me a liar on this board... he couldn’t back it. You’re still my bitch, Tuk. Some things never change. smoking smiley
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 11, 2019 01:44AM
This article may interest you.

[www.thestar.com]
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 11, 2019 02:15AM
Indy,

You’re too stupid to know when you’re wrong. Gloat in your ignorance fool
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 11, 2019 05:34AM
No source? Then it never happened, BITCH. No wonder your wife is always sleeping with other men.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 11, 2019 05:45AM
Hey dipshit...

Quote

) or he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too

Why you suck so much balls... I’ve argued the exact same thing for literally years here on this board, but now you just happen to be ok with a system just like our current Medicare but with higher cost sharing? Go fuk yourself clown. Did you come to this realization with his finger up your ass?
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 11, 2019 10:24AM
Source it whenever you’re ready, bitch.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 11, 2019 10:03PM
Quote

Tuk - I think the fair solution would be to find a way to keep access while lowering costs. To do that, we really just need sensible solutions like expanding financial assistance, coming up with a single payer system similar to Medicare, but with higher cost share....

Quote

Indy - Same old tired discredited arguments of the medical, pharmaceutical and insurance industry.

[www.selectsmart.com]

I also like how you made me source all the years of you being a lying pompous ass whenever we argue healthcare.

Medicare is an 80/20 coinsurance
Your doctor says 70/30 coinsurance

I’ve literally have stated, for years and years here at SS, that I support a Medicare system with higher cost sharing. You have been an absolute pest for years and years trying to make counter arguments on something you had very little knowledge on.

Then just out of the blue...

Quote

or he had a plan of his own - gov't pays 70% and patients pay 30% (which would be fine by me too

You’re such a fuking troll.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 12, 2019 02:00AM
That's rich. You pulled ONE line out of a post that had 17 paragraphs and act like my answer was specifically directed at THAT? You're a con artist by trade, Tuk. The only reason you're mad at me and keep knocking yourself out trying to find some "lie" or something I got wrong in the 10 years or so we've been posting on this board is because I call you and your con game out and expose the lies to everyone else who can't figure it out on their own. Sorry - that lame ass post doesn't change anything...

You're still my b!tch, b!tch.
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 12, 2019 02:22AM
So just to confirm you’re now perfectly fine with a Medicare system for everyone pre-65 at a 70/30 cost share?
Re: My doctor wants M4A
November 12, 2019 02:26AM
Quote
tuk22
So just to confirm you’re now perfectly fine with a Medicare system for everyone pre-65 at a 70/30 cost share?

I don't think he will. Indy is the Mick Mulvaney of SelectSmart.com and vehemently denies saying what he already said. I know, because I already brought it up. [www.selectsmart.com]
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