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lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws

Posted by txcup 
lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 17, 2019 02:23PM
the EXACT place where it should land (if at all)

the true nature of the gun grabbing agenda is revealed -- disarm whitey. keep guns in the hands of the murderous vibrants

[www.washingtonexaminer.com]

House Democrats this week advanced a new measure to encourage states to pass “red flag” laws, known as extreme risk protection orders, that authorize removing guns and ammunition from dangerous individuals.

Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee amended the measure during a Wednesday mark-up to authorize the federal government to issue extreme risk protection orders in some instances, but they rejected an amendment that would have red-flagged anyone who law enforcement lists as a gang member.

“The majority of violent crime, including gun violence, in the United States is linked to gangs,” Rep. Ken Buck, a Colorado Republican who sponsored the amendment, said Wednesday. “My amendment is quite simple. It would allow the issuance of a red flag order against anyone whose name appears in a gang database if there was probable cause to include that individual in the database.”

Democrats objected with reasons that sounded very familiar to Republicans.

GOP lawmakers have staunchly opposed “No Fly, No Buy” proposals Democrats have tried to pass in the House in recent years because the lists flag the wrong people.

==========================================================================

I AM A RACIST

i saved you name-calling race dupes many keystrokes. you're welcome smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2019 02:24PM by txcup.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 17, 2019 05:00PM
Yeah.... Pretty typical. I'm disappointed, but not surprised at all.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 17, 2019 08:35PM
Quote
Law & Order opening narration
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate crime, and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.

The intent of red flag laws is to allow people who personally know gun owners who are a potential danger to themselves or others to petition the court to have their guns removed. The police should stay in their lane and focus on investigating crime. The people who are intimately familiar with unstable and violent gun owners should be the ones who petition the courts, and the courts should be the final decision makers.

Simply finding and submitting names that appear on a "database" is not a personal connection that the Red Flag laws intended. If the gang database lists felons, the Red Flag law is superfluous as federal law already makes the possession of guns by felons a felony. To put this in terms that you might relate to, how would you like it if people whose names appear on a Southern Poverty Law Center database had their guns confiscated?
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 17, 2019 08:46PM
sure. being in a violent street gang in the most murderous areas in america is not a red flag. lol

[www.independentsentinel.com]

Democrats say the Red Flag database cannot include gang databases

Democrats advanced a new measure this week to encourage states to pass “red flag” laws. These so-called extreme risk protection orders authorize removing guns and ammunition from individuals deemed as dangerous by some anonymous, unaccountable person, but it would not include the ready-made lists of gang members.

Republicans tried to add an amendment including known gang members, but the Democrats will not permit the inclusion of gang databases. It’s odd since gangs are the ones causing most of the so-called gun violence.

They would agree to include the names of white supremacists, but not other terror groups.

==========================================================================

I AM A RACIST

i saved you name-calling race dupes many keystrokes. you're welcome smiling smiley
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 12:41AM
Curt- "The intent of red flag laws is to allow people who personally know gun owners who are a potential danger to themselves or others to petition the court to have their guns removed. The police should stay in their lane and focus on investigating crime."

So being in a group that is responsible for over 95% of the gun violence does not say they are a danger to themselves and others? Most medium to large cities have a huge gang problem. It would make it easier for Police to do their jobs arresting criminals. Also, this would make it easier to charge straw-buyers, which is a federal felony count. The other thing is that I see this as a legal leverage that governments could charge an additional gun count.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 01:37AM
Quote
OldeDude
Curt- "The intent of red flag laws is to allow people who personally know gun owners who are a potential danger to themselves or others to petition the court to have their guns removed. The police should stay in their lane and focus on investigating crime."

So being in a group that is responsible for over 95% of the gun violence does not say they are a danger to themselves and others? Most medium to large cities have a huge gang problem. It would make it easier for Police to do their jobs arresting criminals. Also, this would make it easier to charge straw-buyers, which is a federal felony count. The other thing is that I see this as a legal leverage that governments could charge an additional gun count.

Actually, gangs account for about 6.5% of all firearm homicides. [ucr.fbi.gov]

Gang-affiliation databases are created and collected through subjective and error-prone processes. [www.propublica.org] Even when a gang database is accurate in identfiying gang members, simply being affiliated with a gang isn't necessarily illegal; it depends on the state. However, many gang members are already felons, so they are not supposed to have any guns. That renders applying red flag laws moot.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 02:04AM
Quote
Curt Anderson
Quote
Law & Order opening narration
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate crime, and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.

The intent of red flag laws is to allow people who personally know gun owners who are a potential danger to themselves or others to petition the court to have their guns removed. The police should stay in their lane and focus on investigating crime. The people who are intimately familiar with unstable and violent gun owners should be the ones who petition the courts, and the courts should be the final decision makers.

Simply finding and submitting names that appear on a "database" is not a personal connection that the Red Flag laws intended. If the gang database lists felons, the Red Flag law is superfluous as federal law already makes the possession of guns by felons a felony. To put this in terms that you might relate to, how would you like it if people whose names appear on a Southern Poverty Law Center database had their guns confiscated?

Seems like a good idea, except I think it could bring about more vindictive litigation that it's actually worth. Anyone who wants to hurt their ex and is motivated enough could go to court and manufacture some tears. So I would keep that on the table but check for system abuse.

And I certainly don't agree with confiscating guns because someone appeared in a police gang database. Wtf. Who controls the database? What're the criteria for listing people? I don't know anything about that. I don't know that a jurisdiction won't arbitrarily put people on lists to remove their guns because they can. That is blatantly unConstitutional.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 04:52AM
Quote
nitou
Quote
Curt Anderson
Quote
Law & Order opening narration
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate crime, and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.


And I certainly don't agree with confiscating guns because someone appeared in a police gang database. Wtf. Who controls the database? What're the criteria for listing people? I don't know anything about that. I don't know that a jurisdiction won't arbitrarily put people on lists to remove their guns because they can. That is blatantly unConstitutional.

this is the trained police/homeland security gov agents raising the red flag. you think the ex-husband or ex-wife....or perhaps the aggrieved neighbor is more credible?

lmao!

there should be NO red flag list if this doesnt qualify. it is exhibit A and B.

my personal preference is for no list. but if the bolsheviks try to go there....all the gang bangers you can eat leading off

double bonus -- a lot of so-called judges (and other organs of the state) routinely classify the vibrants as mentally retarded and/or unstable to excuse/monimize their psychopathy

how many ways can this same demo win the race?

==========================================================================

I AM A RACIST

i saved you name-calling race dupes many keystrokes. you're welcome smiling smiley



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2019 04:58AM by txcup.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 10:39AM
Curt- "Actually, gangs account for about 6.5% of all firearm homicides. [ucr.fbi.gov]

Gang-affiliation databases are created and collected through subjective and error-prone processes. [www.propublica.org] Even when a gang database is accurate in identfiying gang members, simply being affiliated with a gang isn't necessarily illegal; it depends on the state. However, many gang members are already felons, so they are not supposed to have any guns. That renders applying red flag laws moot."


The police do have accurate lists of members and groups (depending on the jurisdiction). Most larger cities have gang units that deal exclusively with gangs, their members, homeycides, etc. The cities are at fault for the low reporting of gang violence to the FBI. It is not in their interest to report gang violence to either the Bureau, or to the media. Look at the violence in Chicago, St Louis (metro). This summer's group of murders in large cities were mostly gang related.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 07:06PM
Quote
OldeDude
Curt- "Actually, gangs account for about 6.5% of all firearm homicides. [ucr.fbi.gov]

Gang-affiliation databases are created and collected through subjective and error-prone processes. [www.propublica.org] Even when a gang database is accurate in identfiying gang members, simply being affiliated with a gang isn't necessarily illegal; it depends on the state. However, many gang members are already felons, so they are not supposed to have any guns. That renders applying red flag laws moot."


The police do have accurate lists of members and groups (depending on the jurisdiction). Most larger cities have gang units that deal exclusively with gangs, their members, homeycides, etc. The cities are at fault for the low reporting of gang violence to the FBI. It is not in their interest to report gang violence to either the Bureau, or to the media. Look at the violence in Chicago, St Louis (metro). This summer's group of murders in large cities were mostly gang related.

So your position is that police are accurate in collecting data on who is a gang member but are inaccurate on collecting data on crimes committed by gang members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 12:05AM by Curt Anderson.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 18, 2019 08:42PM
I'm saying the collection data is accurate (it's kept by the folks on the street. Gang membership doesn't change quickly), and the politicians (mayors, city managers', city councils) revamp the stats to NOT show gang related crime (i.e. they lie to the FBI to make their cities more appealing).
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 12:35AM
Quote
OldeDude
I'm saying the collection data is accurate (it's kept by the folks on the street. Gang membership doesn't change quickly), and the politicians (mayors, city managers', city councils) revamp the stats to NOT show gang related crime (i.e. they lie to the FBI to make their cities more appealing).

That that doesn't make any sense. People do not consult FBI homicide statistics before deciding if a particular city is appealing or not. Contrary to your theory that mayors, city managers and city councils lie and under-report crimes, they are incentivised to fully report crime statistics since crime stricken areas are eligible for federal law enforcement grants and other federal dollars for police departments, homeland security issues, etc. through the DOJ.

More importantly, in the normal application of red flag laws, a family member or a friend who is concerned that somebody is dangerous to themselves and others goes to court to petition for the removal of the erratic person's guns. But simply being on a database list deprives the accused of their Sixth Amendment rights. Namely, the Sixth Amendment protects the right of the accused to be confronted with the witnesses. Who would take credit for the creation of database and agrees to be a witness in court? The database idea smacks of the French Revolution when people were beheaded because their names appeared on list.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 02:32AM
"Contrary to your theory that mayors, city managers and city councils lie and under-report crimes, they are incentivised to fully report crime statistics since crime stricken areas are eligible for federal law enforcement grants and other federal dollars for police departments, homeland security issues, etc. through the DOJ."

But these city administrators aren't worried about the money, because that money includes strings that they MUST have federal agencies in their Task forces to get the money. Few of the Task Forces actually are charged to specifically look at gangs. During Kamala's reign, they would proffer the gun charge on a homeycide to under report gun violence. Average sentence for a first murder offense = 3 years.

"More importantly, in the normal application of red flag laws, a family member or a friend who is concerned that somebody is dangerous to themselves and others goes to court to petition for the removal of the erratic person's guns."
That is not part of the law. They only need to "report" the "threat."

"But simply being on a database list deprives the accused of their Sixth Amendment rights. Namely, the Sixth Amendment protects the right of the accused to be confronted with the witnesses. Who would take credit for the creation of database and agrees to be a witness in court? The database idea smacks of the French Revolution when people were beheaded because their names appeared on list."

In the current "Red Flag Laws," there is already a built-in sixth amendment violation. And, they're all a boiler-plate from CAs. So under red flag, NO ONE has the right to go to court or to see a judge prior to the warrantless entry. This is something I have talked about. I would support the Red Flag Law if they would fix the fourth and sixth amendment issues, the Rule 16 and Rule 26 violations. Also, I think we are looking at this differently. I see this as an enhancement consideration to the Red Flag Law, not an end all. Of course, my view is also that criminal street gangs needs to be illegal (after they parted out one of our sources). I agree with most of them being felons, and many of the guns they use are bought from other gang members.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2019 01:34AM by OldeDude.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 06:17AM
being documented as gang member = the reddest of flags

crips, bloods, ms-13, kkk, black panthers, and the rest....

an absolute gold mine of lulz trying to justify their exemption from the list

==========================================================================

I AM A RACIST

i saved you name-calling race dupes many keystrokes. you're welcome smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2019 06:18AM by txcup.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 03:40PM
I would suggest that being a member of a police force is also a red flag. So is being a lawyer or a judge.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 04:12PM
My brother and best friend were robbed/incarcerated/shot by the dirty system. Anyone who is a cop or lawyer should automatically have their houses raided because they are a danger to society.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 06:35PM
Quote
nitou
My brother and best friend were robbed/incarcerated/shot by the dirty system. Anyone who is a cop or lawyer should automatically have their houses raided because they are a danger to society.

Wow! I'd like to know more details of that story.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 19, 2019 06:45PM
Since there was a discharged weapon, I would like to know what the investigation says.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 20, 2019 07:30AM
Quote
Curt Anderson
Quote
nitou
My brother and best friend were robbed/incarcerated/shot by the dirty system. Anyone who is a cop or lawyer should automatically have their houses raided because they are a danger to society.

Wow! I'd like to know more details of that story.

Mostly I was ranting at txcup because I'm irritated with the prejudice and racism driving this unAmerican sentiment. It's not like cops are the good guys and whoever they're antagonizing are the bad guys. It's not always like that. They might have PTSD that needs treatment or else they enjoy being bullies or they're tricked into doing thugs' work. Some cops think what txcup writes. And some lawyers just don't care whether they lock up innocent people. They work for their pride or their career, not justice. They don't care. Why wouldn't someone make a list for the wrong reasons because they can, if they had that power?

What I mentioned above were separate incidences which I did not witness. The one with my brother happened when he and his wife went out for some drinks. The establishment thugged them for more than what they owed with the police help. I'm wary of giving details because it was an organized racquet, not just a disagreement over the bill.

The other was my best friend who I've known for five years. He was shot and incarcerated long before we met. I think he was still a teen. This is my roommate who I know to be always honest and kind-hearted. But he's had a hard life, including early abandonment and institutionalized abuse. As a young man he was driving a stolen vehicle with his thug friends and I think they threw him under the bus for something they did. He says he didn't know. The cop pulled him over and shot him in the face without even saying anything. They have excuses. I don't know the exact circumstances and don't pry about traumatic things.
Re: lol..gun grabbers seek to exclude gang bangers from red flag laws
September 21, 2019 04:43AM
Quote
nitou
My brother and best friend were robbed/incarcerated/shot by the dirty system. Anyone who is a cop or lawyer should automatically have their houses raided because they are a danger to society.

spoken like a true libertarian

your angle might work....but only in a high trust homogeneous society. multicult vibrant society? forget about it

==========================================================================

I AM A RACIST

i saved you name-calling race dupes many keystrokes. you're welcome smiling smiley
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