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This isn't complicated. 2020 is a referendum on Trump.
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Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 01:30AM
Quote
Donna
I doubt if that tax break fully covers their outlay for subsidizing their employees' health care coverage.

Actually those "other reasons" you're imagining (if it's what I think you're referring to) are all in your head. She and I haven't even discussed that.

Frankly, I don't think you have any other reasons. Cost is your reason for wanting M4A. I don't know why you are taking such umbrage at the suggestion that it is your only reason. But go ahead, shock me with the other reason that you have for wanting M4A.

As for your other point, the tax breaks don't have to fully cover it. As I said, the fact that employer-sponsored health insurance and the health insurance industry are well established here, makes a move to government-run health care system very difficult. Here is an instructive history.

Quote
The Real Reason the U.S. Has Employer-Sponsored Health Insurance
In 1942, with so many eligible workers diverted to military service, the nation was facing a severe labor shortage. Economists feared that businesses would keep raising salaries to compete for workers, and that inflation would spiral out of control as the country came out of the Depression. To prevent this, President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9250, establishing the Office of Economic Stabilization.

This froze wages. Businesses were not allowed to raise pay to attract workers.

Businesses were smart, though, and instead they began to use benefits to compete. Specifically, to offer more, and more generous, health care insurance.

Then, in 1943, the Internal Revenue Service decided that employer-based health insurance should be exempt from taxation. This made it cheaper to get health insurance through a job than by other means.

After World War II, Europe was devastated. As countries began to regroup and decide how they might provide health care to their citizens, often government was the only entity capable of doing so, with businesses and economies in ruin. The United States was in a completely different situation. Its economy was booming, and industry was more than happy to provide health care.

This didn’t stop President Truman from considering and promoting a national health care system in 1945. This idea had a fair amount of public support, but business, in the form of the Chamber of Commerce, opposed it. So did the American Hospital Association and American Medical Association. Even many unions did, having spent so much political capital fighting for insurance benefits for their members. Confronted by such opposition from all sides, national health insurance failed — for not the first or last time.

In 1940, about 9 percent of Americans had some form of health insurance. By 1950, more than 50 percent did. By 1960, more than two-thirds did.

There are other countries with private insurance systems, but none that rely so heavily on employer-sponsored insurance.
[www.nytimes.com]






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 01:55AM
I wouldn't be interested in M4A if it there was little or no out-of-pocket expenses but the docs were second-rate, the medical facilities were filthy dirty, and the waiting times were unacceptable, which is what od fears would happen under M4A and which btw is why he made that comment about Ponderer only being interested in cost.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 02:17AM
Quote
Donna
I wouldn't be interested in M4A if it there was little or no out-of-pocket expenses but the docs were second-rate, the medical facilities were filthy dirty, and the waiting times were unacceptable, which is what od fears would happen under M4A and which btw is why he made that comment about Ponderer only being interested in cost.

It's not fair to say only second rate doctors would work within the M4A system, but many doctors would opt out. So there would be a reduced choice and availability of doctors. Maybe significant, maybe not. Not all doctors take Medicare patients now; psychiatrists in particular won't. And of those doctors who do, they will only see a certain percent of Medicare patients.

Simultaneously and retroactively, something has to be done about the high cost of educating a doctor; all of my doctor friends had huge school bills which took them years to pay back.

As for wait times, it's almost inevitable they would be worse. The VA system, and the health care in other countries provide a glimpse of what M4A is likely to bring. Personally, I think it would be worth the wait, but not everybody would agree.






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 06:20PM
"I think M4A is a laudable goal. I just don't believe it's achievable." -Curt

So what?

So let's just try to get half of what we think we can get and if we're lucky we'll get half of that and be satisfied? Just give up and give in to our Corporate Overlords before any feathers get ruffled or there is any shudder experienced in the Sacred Status Quo? Let's just surrender before even declaring war?

Dear God Americans have become a terrified flock of pants-pissing chickens if you're any example, Curt.


"Frankly, I don't think you have any other reasons. Cost is your reason for wanting M4A." -Curt\

*face palm*

Frankly, even if there were no other reasons but cost for enacting M4A, I would still be 100% in favor of it. However...

Reasons other than cost for having Medicare For All?

• It would cover EVERYBODY.
• It would eliminate the psychotic, convoluted, irrelevant middleman process the insurance industry lives for.
• It would cover all basic healthcare, including dental, hearing, eye glasses, and other things not always covered..
• It would cover EVERYBODY. No one would be excluded.
• It would save lives. Fewer people would die from preventable diseases for lack of access to healthcare.
• It would help and free up businesses and employers from having to deal with employee healthcare at all.
• It would be an absolute boon to the economy. People would have more money to spend.
• It would eliminate bankruptcies caused by medical expenses.
• It would simplify doctors' lives and hospitals' workforce.
• It would simplify everyone's lives and eliminate a major stress factor for the population.
• It would cover EVERYBODY. No one would be excluded. EVERYONE WOULD BE COVERED.
• It would be automatic to have and impossible to lose
• It would eliminate at least one stranglehold the Oligarchy has us in.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 06:31PM
Because government is this involved is PRECISELY why we pay more for less.

#walkaway

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:20PM
Ponderer,
I feel about M4A as I did Trump's 1000 mile long border wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for. It is simply an extravagant but empty promise. It plays well with Bernie's faithful, but the "uninformed" (as I believe Donna called them) are skeptical. M4A or even a half M4A will not get 60 votes in the US Senate. Look at the 2009 vote passing Obama care. That is why I suggested M4A along with any other variations of government-run healthcare be tried on the state level where it has a possibility of being passed somewhere.

After reading your list, I grant that you have other reasons for supporting M4A.






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:36PM
Curt you remind me of a Woody Allen line from Annie Hall:

"They did not take me in the Army. I was, um, interestingly enough, I was, I was 4-P. Yes. In the, in the event of war, I'm a hostage."

So are you actually never willing to fight for anything unless success is a guaranteed given? What the hell kind of a "fight" is that?

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:40PM
I'll bet that almost no one who can't afford health care coverage believes that we shouldn't at least try for M4A. But I guess if you already have yours, then why should you care, right?

If we try, at the very least, more Americans would understand what Bernie's M4A plan actually is, how it would have helped them, and who prevented them from having it.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:42PM
If Curt had been president instead of FDR, we all would be speaking German or Japanese now.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 08:29PM
Ponderer and Donna,
You two subscribe to the Don Quixote school of politics. I follow FDR's pragmatic example. Social Security was not an FDR campaign promise. The original Social Security bill did not cover nearly as many segments of the population as it does now; it evolved. FDR did not enter America into World War II headlong in 1939. There was a strong isolationist sentiment at the time. He pragmaticly started the Lend-Lease program to keep Great Britain afloat (literally) and in a situation where they could defend themselves.






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 08:48PM
I see.

So we can't possibly ever accomplish what all other civilized countries are well capable of doing. We can only ever do what this country was able to do well over half a century ago.

Got it. thumbs up

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 08:49PM
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 09:27PM
Quote
Ponderer
I see.

So we can't possibly ever accomplish what all other civilized countries are well capable of doing. We can only ever do what this country was able to do well over half a century ago.

Got it. thumbs up

I already explained the historical reasons why the UK and other European countries were able to initiate national healthcare systems after WWII and American did not. If history had been different, it might have happened here. But it didn't. History is what it was.

You need to face facts. No other country, civilized or not, covers what you say M4A promises. No country's health care system covers what you listed above, namely "all basic healthcare, including dental, hearing, eye glasses, and other things not always covered." Nowhere is it covered for "EVERYBODY" or anybody (except maybe for some active military and current prisoners). If you are going to fight for something, fight for something in which your loss is not a foregone conclusion. In other words, be pragmatic. The originator of the world's first universal healthcare system, Otto von Bismarck, said "politics is the art of the possible."

Furthermore, some of the best healthcare systems in the world where coverage is mandated by law, are operated and delivered completely by private insurers. Patients go to private hospitals and see their physicians in their private practices.

Quote
The Bismarck Model
Today, the Bismarck Model serves as the predominant means of guaranteeing universal coverage in Europe, used in Germany, France, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, and others. (Japan is also a Bismarck Model country.) The implementation varies, but all mandate insurance in one form or another. In Germany, for example, employers and employees jointly fund insurance via withholding; in Switzerland, individuals purchase their own policies.
[healthmatters4.blogspot.com]






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 09:39PM
Oh.

So the United States is not only incapable of doing what other countries are capable of doing, we can also never improve on anything that every other country is capable of doing.

Got it. Thanks again.


Thank God that our Founding Fathers were nowhere near as pragmatic as you are, Curt.

Although... we would likely have universal health care for all as a part of Great Britain right now....

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 10:11PM
Ponderer,
Au contraire! Actually America's founders were highly pragmatic. They took advantage of timing. They declared independence from England when England was weakened and stretched thin protecting their empire elsewhere around the globe.

In 1775 the British army was a volunteer force. The English army had suffered from lack of peacetime spending and ineffective recruitment in the decade since the Seven Years' War, circumstances which had left it in a dilapidated state at the outbreak of war in North America. Britain had incurred a large national debt fighting the Seven Years' War. Because Americans were not paying taxes to the Crown, the Brits were heavily taxed to finance their military. Needless to say the taxes were very unpopular in England.






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 10:25PM
Oh my yes, a fledgling bunch of traitors going up against the mightiest navy and military in the world at the time was highly pragmatic. Success was guaranteed!

But getting back to your argument, explain again how we can't afford to spend less for healthcare like every civilized country can...?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2019 10:38PM by Ponderer.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 11:31PM
Quote
Ponderer
Oh my yes, a fledgling bunch of traitors going up against the mightiest navy and military in the world at the time was highly pragmatic. Success was guaranteed!

But getting back to your argument, explain again how we can't afford to spend less for healthcare like every civilized country can...?

We can spend less. But Medicare-for-all as described by you and Bernie Sanders isn't how it will happen. There are examples of successful alternatives in keeping with America's capitalist ethos. Nor would it go against American's reluctance to give up something they already have and like. Many of those countries that you think are what we would aspire to have private insurance companies as the basis of their healthcare system.

Success doesn't have to be guaranteed, it just has to be possible. There is simply no way M4A will get the needed 60 votes in the US Senate. Anybody who says so is either naive or lying.






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 11:37PM
I think you misunderstand what Insurance is, Curt. All universal schemes are insurance based. But, it is true insurance. Equal payment for all. They are still universal single payer. Those who can't afford basic are subsidised.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 11:45PM
The original NHS in Britain covered optical, dental and pharmaceutical care . The expense of the system led to some charges for optical and dental and prescriptions.

Interesting is that the NHS was the vision and creation of Aneurin Bevan. Bevan who famously said (more eloquently) that "Conservatives are "lower than vermin."
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 17, 2019 12:25AM
Quote
meagain
I think you misunderstand what Insurance is, Curt. All universal schemes are insurance based. But, it is true insurance. Equal payment for all. They are still universal single payer. Those who can't afford basic are subsidised.


No I don't misunderstand. The Swiss and Dutch, for example, pay private insurance companies for their health insurance. M4A, as Ponderer has repeatedly said, would eliminate private insurance companies. What you said about optical, dental and pharmaceutical care in the NHS is interesting and instructive.






Trump is unintentionally sabotaging his own and Republican candidates' campaigns.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 17, 2019 12:51AM
"Here's a helpful little tip, Olde Dude. When you start out a post directed at me with a ridiculous, bald-faced lie about me right out of the gate, I usually don't even read any farther than that. What would be the point if you are determined to miss it? When you go to all the trouble of writing a response to me that you begin by lying about me, you are loudly telegraphing that the rest of it is likely nothing but one big long pile of bullshit to hide the fact that you won't or can't actually answer the question. I would ask you which part of "paying more for less" you are having trouble with, but it is obviously the "getting less" part. I have very obviously all along been championing the idea of getting more and better coverage along with paying less for it."

You were able to wordsmith ANYTHING you wanted to say to title this thread. "Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?" (See above, I shouldn't have to hot key it)

Secondly, against all the statistics that there are, in fact longer wait times for specialists globally in socialized, you don't accept that would be an "issue" with berniecare, which he says gets rid of ALL other health care in the US (much akin to Canada, GB, France, Germany, etcetcetc. He also states some of his cost savings is paying medical staff less. Again, why should I go to that much school if I don't get paid for it. Berniecare is a Marxist model based in what he knows about the VA. And yes, I did read at nauseum about berniecare (both sides), and I actually have knowledge of the VA that you absolutely don't.

FYSA- by not wanting to get in the middle of this discussion, I was actually trying a truce that I wouldn't step in to this so you could pick a fight. There is nothing I can say that you will agree with even if I would agree with you. So go on your rants. Neither of us will change our view. Deal with that.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 17, 2019 01:52AM
So. It is fear then. I understand.

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 17, 2019 05:10PM
Curt- "The Swiss and Dutch, for example, pay private insurance companies for their health insurance. M4A, as Ponderer has repeatedly said, would eliminate private insurance companies. What you said about optical, dental and pharmaceutical care in the NHS is interesting and instructive."

Actually, she's just parroting what Sander's said. The first step is to let the hospitals keep in business until the government strangles them. Then the government takeover of the hospitals as they die. It's a perfect Marxist coup.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2019 05:22PM by OldeDude.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 17, 2019 07:21PM
In both the Netherlands and Switzerland, health insurance is mandatory and cheap. Companies are not allowed to refuse care to anyone. There are also significant government subsidies. Both also have prescription drug coverage as mandatory.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 20, 2019 06:06AM
Actually olde dude's just parroting what the privatization nuts are doing in reverse to the VA.
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