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This isn't complicated. 2020 is a referendum on Trump.

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Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?

Posted by Ponderer 
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:20PM
Ponderer,
I feel about M4A as I did Trump's 1000 mile long border wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for. It is simply an extravagant but empty promise. It plays well with Bernie's faithful, but the "uninformed" (as I believe Donna called them) are skeptical. M4A or even a half M4A will not get 60 votes in the US Senate. Look at the 2009 vote passing Obama care. That is why I suggested M4A along with any other variations of government-run healthcare be tried on the state level where it has a possibility of being passed somewhere.

After reading your list, I grant that you have other reasons for supporting M4A.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:36PM
Curt you remind me of a Woody Allen line from Annie Hall:

"They did not take me in the Army. I was, um, interestingly enough, I was, I was 4-P. Yes. In the, in the event of war, I'm a hostage."

So are you actually never willing to fight for anything unless success is a guaranteed given? What the hell kind of a "fight" is that?

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:40PM
I'll bet that almost no one who can't afford health care coverage believes that we shouldn't at least try for M4A. But I guess if you already have yours, then why should you care, right?

If we try, at the very least, more Americans would understand what Bernie's M4A plan actually is, how it would have helped them, and who prevented them from having it.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 07:42PM
If Curt had been president instead of FDR, we all would be speaking German or Japanese now.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 08:29PM
Ponderer and Donna,
You two subscribe to the Don Quixote school of politics. I follow FDR's pragmatic example. Social Security was not an FDR campaign promise. The original Social Security bill did not cover nearly as many segments of the population as it does now; it evolved. FDR did not enter America into World War II headlong in 1939. There was a strong isolationist sentiment at the time. He pragmaticly started the Lend-Lease program to keep Great Britain afloat (literally) and in a situation where they could defend themselves.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 08:48PM
I see.

So we can't possibly ever accomplish what all other civilized countries are well capable of doing. We can only ever do what this country was able to do well over half a century ago.

Got it. thumbs up

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 08:49PM
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 09:27PM
Quote
Ponderer
I see.

So we can't possibly ever accomplish what all other civilized countries are well capable of doing. We can only ever do what this country was able to do well over half a century ago.

Got it. thumbs up

I already explained the historical reasons why the UK and other European countries were able to initiate national healthcare systems after WWII and American did not. If history had been different, it might have happened here. But it didn't. History is what it was.

You need to face facts. No other country, civilized or not, covers what you say M4A promises. No country's health care system covers what you listed above, namely "all basic healthcare, including dental, hearing, eye glasses, and other things not always covered." Nowhere is it covered for "EVERYBODY" or anybody (except maybe for some active military and current prisoners). If you are going to fight for something, fight for something in which your loss is not a foregone conclusion. In other words, be pragmatic. The originator of the world's first universal healthcare system, Otto von Bismarck, said "politics is the art of the possible."

Furthermore, some of the best healthcare systems in the world where coverage is mandated by law, are operated and delivered completely by private insurers. Patients go to private hospitals and see their physicians in their private practices.

Quote
The Bismarck Model
Today, the Bismarck Model serves as the predominant means of guaranteeing universal coverage in Europe, used in Germany, France, Switzerland, Belgium, Netherlands, and others. (Japan is also a Bismarck Model country.) The implementation varies, but all mandate insurance in one form or another. In Germany, for example, employers and employees jointly fund insurance via withholding; in Switzerland, individuals purchase their own policies.
[healthmatters4.blogspot.com]




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 09:39PM
Oh.

So the United States is not only incapable of doing what other countries are capable of doing, we can also never improve on anything that every other country is capable of doing.

Got it. Thanks again.


Thank God that our Founding Fathers were nowhere near as pragmatic as you are, Curt.

Although... we would likely have universal health care for all as a part of Great Britain right now....

Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 10:11PM
Ponderer,
Au contraire! Actually America's founders were highly pragmatic. They took advantage of timing. They declared independence from England when England was weakened and stretched thin protecting their empire elsewhere around the globe.

In 1775 the British army was a volunteer force. The English army had suffered from lack of peacetime spending and ineffective recruitment in the decade since the Seven Years' War, circumstances which had left it in a dilapidated state at the outbreak of war in North America. Britain had incurred a large national debt fighting the Seven Years' War. Because Americans were not paying taxes to the Crown, the Brits were heavily taxed to finance their military. Needless to say the taxes were very unpopular in England.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 10:25PM
Oh my yes, a fledgling bunch of traitors going up against the mightiest navy and military in the world at the time was highly pragmatic. Success was guaranteed!

But getting back to your argument, explain again how we can't afford to spend less for healthcare like every civilized country can...?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2019 10:38PM by Ponderer.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 11:31PM
Quote
Ponderer
Oh my yes, a fledgling bunch of traitors going up against the mightiest navy and military in the world at the time was highly pragmatic. Success was guaranteed!

But getting back to your argument, explain again how we can't afford to spend less for healthcare like every civilized country can...?

We can spend less. But Medicare-for-all as described by you and Bernie Sanders isn't how it will happen. There are examples of successful alternatives in keeping with America's capitalist ethos. Nor would it go against American's reluctance to give up something they already have and like. Many of those countries that you think are what we would aspire to have private insurance companies as the basis of their healthcare system.

Success doesn't have to be guaranteed, it just has to be possible. There is simply no way M4A will get the needed 60 votes in the US Senate. Anybody who says so is either naive or lying.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 11:37PM
I think you misunderstand what Insurance is, Curt. All universal schemes are insurance based. But, it is true insurance. Equal payment for all. They are still universal single payer. Those who can't afford basic are subsidised.
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 16, 2019 11:45PM
The original NHS in Britain covered optical, dental and pharmaceutical care . The expense of the system led to some charges for optical and dental and prescriptions.

Interesting is that the NHS was the vision and creation of Aneurin Bevan. Bevan who famously said (more eloquently) that "Conservatives are "lower than vermin."
Re: Why do people want to have the choice of paying more for less?
September 17, 2019 12:25AM
Quote
meagain
I think you misunderstand what Insurance is, Curt. All universal schemes are insurance based. But, it is true insurance. Equal payment for all. They are still universal single payer. Those who can't afford basic are subsidised.


No I don't misunderstand. The Swiss and Dutch, for example, pay private insurance companies for their health insurance. M4A, as Ponderer has repeatedly said, would eliminate private insurance companies. What you said about optical, dental and pharmaceutical care in the NHS is interesting and instructive.




"White power! White power!" --Demented Racist Donald Trump


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