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Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?

Posted by Ponderer 
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 05:30AM
It has nothing to do with self defense. It is guns for guns" sake. All countries recognise the Righ to self defense. Most also limit it to the use of reasonable force.

AQs for Switzerland, it has only about half the rate of gun ownership that the USA has. It also has less than one-fifth of the homicide rate. That is because there are gun controls: not enough, but with the fact that most ownership comes from the mandatory military service, there is much more responsible use by trained shooters. Not open carry willy nilly.

Gun controls :

"Switzerland is frequently cited as an example of a country with high gun ownership and a low murder rate. However, Switzerland also has a high degree of gun control, and actually makes a better argument for gun regulation than gun liberalization.

Switzerland keeps only a small standing army, and relies much more heavily on its militia system for national defense. This means that most able-bodied civilian men of military age keep weapons at home in case of a national emergency. These weapons are fully automatic, military assault rifles, and by law they must be kept locked up. Their issue of 72 rounds of ammunition must be sealed, and it is strictly accounted for. This complicates their use for criminal purposes, in that they are difficult to conceal, and their use will be eventually discovered by the authorities.

As for civilian weapons, the cantons (states) issue licenses for handgun purchases on a "must issue" basis. Most, but not all, cantons require handgun registration. Any ammunition bought on the private market is also registered. Ammunition can be bought unregistered at government subsidized shooting ranges, but, by law, one must use all the ammunition at the range. (Unfortunately, this law is not really enforced, and gives Swiss gun owners a way to collect unregistered ammunition.) Because so many people own rifles, there is no regulation on carrying them, but 15 of the 26 cantons have regulations on carrying handguns.

Despite these regulations, Switzerland has the second highest handgun ownership and handgun murder rate in the industrialized world."
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 05:33AM
Quote
Indy!
Angel should stick to dogs and other subjects no one cares about.

Ange.us sticks to stupidity the way a devote Catholic sticks to the Angelus.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 05:45AM
Yawn.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 07:22AM
Meagain,
Switzerland has a population of 8.4 million with 26 cantons. The firearms are regulated locally and subsidized. I favor local regulation. That is in keeping with the words, "well regulated militia." As for your comment "guns for guns sake," why the hell do you care what somebody does for a hobby? Most weapons enthusiasts are not attacking anyone except on the internet. You have an irrational prejudice.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 04:08PM
The five extra words that can fix the Second Amendment

[...]

The Second Amendment expressly endorsed the substantive common-law rule that protected the citizen’s right (and duty) to keep and bear arms when serving in a state militia. In its decision in Heller, however, the majority interpreted the amendment as though its draftsmen were primarily motivated by an interest in protecting the common-law right of self-defense. But that common-law right is a procedural right that has always been available to the defendant in criminal proceedings in every state. The notion that the states were concerned about possible infringement of that right by the federal government is really quite absurd.

As a result of the rulings in Heller and McDonald, the Second Amendment, which was adopted to protect the states from federal interference with their power to ensure that their militias were “well regulated,” has given federal judges the ultimate power to determine the validity of state regulations of both civilian and militia-related uses of arms. That anomalous result can be avoided by adding five words to the text of the Second Amendment to make it unambiguously conform to the original intent of its draftsmen. As so amended, it would read:

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms when serving in the Militia shall not be infringed.”

Emotional claims that the right to possess deadly weapons is so important that it is protected by the federal Constitution distort intelligent debate about the wisdom of particular aspects of proposed legislation designed to minimize the slaughter caused by the prevalence of guns in private hands. Those emotional arguments would be nullified by the adoption of my proposed amendment. The amendment certainly would not silence the powerful voice of the gun lobby; it would merely eliminate its ability to advance one mistaken argument.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 05:19PM
You mean the guy who lost the war for Japan? Yeah - let's listen to him. eye rolling smiley

And that said, I have to note I'm not surprised the Red Party - as usual - turns to our mortal enemies for advice on how to run the USA. It's obviously in their DNA to be anti-American.

===============================================================


This just in... Larry banned from Roy Moore's Victory Party...

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 05:57PM
Quote
nitou
Meagain,
Switzerland has a population of 8.4 million with 26 cantons. The firearms are regulated locally and subsidized. I favor local regulation. That is in keeping with the words, "well regulated militia." As for your comment "guns for guns sake," why the hell do you care what somebody does for a hobby? Most weapons enthusiasts are not attacking anyone except on the internet. You have an irrational prejudice.

Why would I not care what people do for a hobby? Some people have a hobby of drag racing. Should I not care that they endanger life every time they go on the roads. And carrying guns is not a hobby. Target shooting is. You might have noticed that that hobby is what many Swiss have guns. That and nothing else. They are also controlled in that.

Guns in Switzerland are locally regulated. True! But following federal law.

I agree that most weapons enthusiasts are not attacking anybody. Unfortunately, some are. As in Las Vegas. And thousands of your fellow citizens pay the price every year. Are you another of those who will only learn when it happens to you or your close circle. It happens only in America and it is barbaric.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 10:37PM
There are mass shootings elsewhere. Australia changed their gun laws due to a mass shooting. There was ‎Anders Breivik in Norway. That's just off the top of my head. If we throw in terrorists? Plenty more - Charlie Hebdo for instance.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 10:50PM
Ponderer,

"The Second Amendment expressly endorsed the substantive common-law rule that protected the citizen’s right (and duty) to keep and bear arms when serving in a state militia."

WRONG!


It doesn't mean when serving in the militia, it means we are the militia!

'A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'
~2nd amendment

Also see the 14 amendment:

'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.'
~14th amendment, section 1

Thus a state can't can't decide to have gun control, only cities & counties.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 10:54PM
Ponderer,

"Emotional claims that the right to possess deadly weapons is so important that it is protected by the federal Constitution distort intelligent debate about the wisdom of particular aspects of proposed legislation designed to minimize the slaughter caused by the prevalence of guns in private hands."

Wrong again.

Gun control is what distort (or ignores rather) common sense.

Because we know criminal are going to ignore laws (any laws),
all gun control seeks to do is take away guns from the average citizen,
who isn't going to use it to harm people.

Again, look at the statistics of places people are allowed the right to bear arms
vs places with gun control.

It always seem there's more crime where criminals know their victims are weak/helpless!


If I close my eyes forever...
Will it all remain unchanged?
If I close my eyes forever...
Will it all remain the same?

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 10:59PM
You will see I am always right.... because I hate being wrong... & I always use the facts!
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 05, 2017 11:15PM
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 01:48AM
Oh, look at the time, and no pathetic attempts to challenge me. grinning smiley
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 02:50AM
When serving in a militia indeed. A proper militia is ready 24/7/365.

Meagain,
I don't care if people want to go drag racing either as long as they choose an appropriate time and place. If I was a farmer and they crashed into my ditch I'd laugh at them, if they didn't kill themselves. I favor local firearms regulation. The needs of a city are different from the needs of a rural area, for example. I would be likely to favor subsidies for a gun range and teachers. But Switzerland is tiny compared to the US. It has the population of a US state. That makes a difference when you speak of national regulation.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 03:23AM
Meagain and most of the liberals here try to shoehorn progressive policy from other nations into the United States because what works for them must work for us...

It's like the United States isn't unique, like each nation isn't unique...
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 03:33AM
"It doesn't mean when serving in the militia, it means we are the militia!" -angel

Belong to a "well regulated militia" do you? No you don't. You, let alone the entire citizenry, aren't part of a militia just because you have a gun.

The militia they were referring to is a very organized thing. What, do you think that when a militia is needed nowadays, someone just goes around door-to-door looking for people to grab their guns and come out and help shoot some folks?

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:08AM
You can't read or understand what you read. Another libtard failing. I hate to tell you but the world doesn't revolve around your little bubbles of reality. Second amendment is very clear, if you can read that is AND understand the intent by the written word. The Constitution CAN be amended. Facts mean NOTHING to these people regarding guns. History is rife with what happens when they get your guns. Again, history lite libtards.





Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:14AM
Give us your understanding of what the Founders meant by a "well regulated militia" please, whats...

And for ten bonus points, tell us why gun nuts seem religiously intent on completely and totally ignoring that part of the amendment...

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:19AM
Again, you are making another "faux" argument taking crap out of context. This is why you people cannot grasp ANYTHING you read.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zE0K22zH8





Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:20AM
You're right, whats. It is very clear. It clearly intends that since we, at the time, needed to have a well regulated militia to protect each individual state and the country as a whole, people had to be allowed to have guns to be participants in such a militia. Not for their own protection. Not for target practice. Not even for hunting. And not because laying on a pile of guns with bullets stuck up their ass is the only way they can reach orgasm, as is the case with MiraBooHoo...

The one reason they gave for allowing people to have guns was to be part of a militia.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:21AM
What other reasons am I missing in that amendment...?

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:21AM
Wow, I even linked a video because you can't read.





Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:39AM
"It clearly intends that since we, at the time, needed to have a well regulated militia to protect each individual state and the country as a whole, people had to be allowed to have guns to be participants in such a militia." -me

Yet you can not find fault with any part of that sentence.


And Penn's argument is stupid. He's saying that because we need a militia, made up of people with guns, the people need to have guns so that some militia can't take their guns away. That's nonsense.

Imagine some "militia"... five or ten guys with guns... showing up at your house and demanding that you give them your guns...

"As God is my witness," you spout off to them, "I have the inalienable right to keep and bear my arms by virtue of the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States! And verily I hereby declare, you shall not lay hands upon them, nor abscond with them, nor deprive me of them in any way whatsoever! You, my dear sirs, may have my guns when you pry them fr...", and one of them shoots you.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 05:46AM
Figured you don't have anything to add. That video is spot on. Facts don't care about your feelings.





Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 05:55AM
I added that Penn's take was stupid. Then I explained the basis of my assertion. There's two things I added right there. As a matter of fact.

Here... lemme add something else...

"It clearly intends that since we, at the time, needed to have a well regulated militia to protect each individual state and the country as a whole, people had to be allowed to have guns to be participants in such a militia." -me

You are absolutely incapable of finding any fault with any part of that sentence.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 11:17AM
Penn was spot on. The Second amendment is quite clear. Embellishing and trying to form a strawman is not valid factual thought.





Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 03:29PM
"The Second amendment is quite clear." -whats

So then why are you perfectly happy to completely ignore the well regulated militia part? Where in the amendment does it clearly state that the well regulated militia part is to be totally and completely dismissed and ignored?

"It clearly intends that since we, at the time, needed to have a well regulated militia to protect each individual state and the country as a whole, people had to be allowed to have guns to be participants in such a militia." -me

I'm not "embellishing" a damned thing. You are absolutely incapable of finding any fault with any part of that sentence. If I am not reading it correctly, why can't you explain the correct way to interpret it? Why can't you correct me? If you know I am wrong, you must know what is correct. Cough it up.

For the fifth fruitless time now I ask you to point out how I am wrong.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 03:38PM
Again, I can't help you if you can't read and understand what you read. You are trying to build a strawman argument based on assumptions rather than reading and better yet comprehending. Penn was spot on. If this is the way you go through life no wonder you have it so hard. Must suck reading a book (or anything) and really never gleaning any meaning from it other than what you want to believe through those libtard glasses you wear.

This is what YOU are reading misconstruing,

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If you replaced PEOPLE with Militia....you would have a valid argument. But, that's not what is written. Arms is not simply guns BTW.









Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2017 03:45PM by whats@work.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:00PM
So once a person joins a militia, they are no longer considered "people"? What is a freaking militia made up of for pete's sake? I wish you could see how stupid your lame obfuscation is making you look. I clearly mention people in this explanation:

"It clearly intends that since we, at the time, needed to have a well regulated militia to protect each individual state and the country as a whole, people had to be allowed to have guns to be participants in such a militia." -me

For the sixth pointlessly optimistic time now I implore you to point out any error or "misreading" in that sentence. Blather on about how I am not reading the Second Amendment right all you want. Your blather is meaningless if you can't point out how any of what I am saying is wrong. Calling me names and insulting me is not pointing that out. It just points out how you have no argument against what I am saying at all.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:11PM
Clearly you are uneducated. You have no argument and are incapable of seeing reality. You are trying to build a strawman and failing. Good luck in trying to morph reality.





Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:15PM
Quote
tuk22
Meagain and most of the liberals here try to shoehorn progressive policy from other nations into the United States because what works for them must work for us...

It's like the United States isn't unique, like each nation isn't unique...

True. The US has over 300 million people vs. our peers in the world who have a fraction of our population. Some of us have the same feelings we did when the 2nd was written. We don't like far away governments (like the federal), meddling in our business.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 04:20PM
Why do you even enter into debates when you can't even support your opinion? It's obvious to anyone reading all this that you are doing nothing but desperately flailing to distract from the fact that you are completely incapable of finding fault in what I said. Why do you insist on parading how pathetic you are?

"It clearly intends that since we, at the time, needed to have a well regulated militia to protect each individual state and the country as a whole, people had to be allowed to have guns to be participants in such a militia." -me

For the seventh time, point out how this simple and fact based reading of the Second Amendment is wrong or passively concede that your entire argument is baseless and that you simply can't stand that I am right....

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 06:28PM
Countries grow up as well as children. The utter foolishness of arguments in favour of the perverted reading of the 2nd. Amendment is incomprehensible and its adherents will never be convinced. Every straw thet=y grasp at; every argument they make leads to Confirmation Bias.

However, one item that never seems to be discussed is the wording "being necessary to the security of a free state." That, in itself, ought to settle the issue. As soon as the State raises a standing army, it is no longer necessary. The very words are a throwback to medievalism when there were no standing armies. I have repeated ad nauseam, the tradition of militias in England where the concept came from. It faded when the state developed a standing army" it was no longer necessary. England grew up. Monied interests in America will not let America grow up.

And, countries with gun control are not fractions of the USA. They are populous nations. The Europen Union is also a federated state in all but name that is bigger than the USA and its members all have gun controls. With a vastly safer condition thatn the US.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 08:07PM
Scared little people need guns because they don't have the balls to face reality. That's why it's the Red Party communists buying up all the weapons in this country.

===============================================================


This just in... Larry banned from Roy Moore's Victory Party...

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 06, 2017 09:38PM
"However, one item that never seems to be discussed is the wording "being necessary to the security of a free state." That, in itself, ought to settle the issue. As soon as the State raises a standing army, it is no longer necessary." -meagain

BINGO, meagain. It's blatantly obvious yet they never want to address the issue. I feel pretty confident that ammosexuals like MiraBooHoo and whats actually do realize this but are just loathe to acknowledge or admit it. That's why they won't even address it when they are confronted with it.

I started a whole thread about this very thing but they will avoid it there too I imagine.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 07, 2017 02:37AM
it's not a gun problem. it's a negro problem. repeal negroes? send them to liberia like lincoln hoped?

[gulfcoastcommentary.blogspot.com]

Black men, at 6% of the population commit 56% of gun murders and 59% of felony murders. Some 11% of black men are in jail right now. The published black high school graduation rate of 54% is exaggerated because no statistician is accounting for the large numbers of young black men/boys in jail. And 37% of those kids who drop-out are in jail.

$21 trillion has been spent on income support and benefits substantially for blacks since Johnson's Great Society, but poverty has increased! It's because these programs have ruined black families and single parent households are much poorer than households with two parents. Despite all that money, one can easily make an argument that the Great Society has ushered-in a black cultural collapse.

[gulfcoastcommentary.blogspot.com]

Every year, about 8,000 black persons are killed by other blacks. That's more than 1/2 of the total murders committed each year in the entire country and it's committed by just 3% of the population (young black men)

But these black lives don't apparently matter, since we hear no protests about this outrageous loss of life. But when one or two black scumbags are shot and killed by police, the media shows up and starts massive propaganda with the goal of inciting even more violence. Only when the national media is present does any black lives matter.

====================================================================

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 07, 2017 03:07AM
"it's not a gun problem. it's a negro problem" -txcup

Thanks for saving me the waste of time reading anything beyond that sentence.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 07, 2017 03:45AM
Quote
txcup
it's not a gun problem. it's a negro problem. repeal negroes? send them to liberia like lincoln hoped?

[gulfcoastcommentary.blogspot.com]

Black men, at 6% of the population commit 56% of gun murders and 59% of felony murders. Some 11% of black men are in jail right now. The published black high school graduation rate of 54% is exaggerated because no statistician is accounting for the large numbers of young black men/boys in jail. And 37% of those kids who drop-out are in jail.

$21 trillion has been spent on income support and benefits substantially for blacks since Johnson's Great Society, but poverty has increased! It's because these programs have ruined black families and single parent households are much poorer than households with two parents. Despite all that money, one can easily make an argument that the Great Society has ushered-in a black cultural collapse.

[gulfcoastcommentary.blogspot.com]

Every year, about 8,000 black persons are killed by other blacks. That's more than 1/2 of the total murders committed each year in the entire country and it's committed by just 3% of the population (young black men)

But these black lives don't apparently matter, since we hear no protests about this outrageous loss of life. But when one or two black scumbags are shot and killed by police, the media shows up and starts massive propaganda with the goal of inciting even more violence. Only when the national media is present does any black lives matter.

The crime and poverty you describe is due to a breakdown in the family/community that has developed over generations. It didn't just arise out of a failure of the people. Institutional white supremacy and radical liberalism have both contributed to the demise of some communities. So have the corrupt criminal injustice system and the "war on drugs." People have been protesting these things all along. They are not just protesting "one or two black scumbags" killed by police. They are protesting communities terrorized by corrupt and racist police. Black men get killed for exercising their legal right to bear arms while pants-pissing NRA-types are silent or condone it. Unfortunately the protests against police brutality were hijacked by BLM, which is a Trojan horse. They made it into a partisan issue which it shouldn't be. They were just people who wanted the brutality to stop. Injustice is the root of social chaos.
Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 07, 2017 04:52PM
The unfortunate wording of the Second Amendment was the worst mistake the Founders made in their entire political careers.

I suppose they can't be held too much to blame though. They had no earthly way of ever imagining how that amendment would end up being bastardized and misinterpreted and twisted into supporting the homicidal horror this country is now held hostage to.

Re: Time to repeal the Second Amendment...?
October 07, 2017 05:24PM
Pondy originally arguing that the 2nd amendment was clear and that supporters of the amendment didn't understand the text.

Now she wants to add to it to make it specific to her original argument
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